Cecil shuts out the Rangers as the Jays win 3-0
by JohnnyG on Jul 24, 2011 11:38 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
Email
PrintWell, everything I have thought about this series turned out to be wrong. In the second game I thought it couldnt get in worse and sure enough it did as the Jays lost it in the ninth. Tonight I have fears about Cecil velocity and control and sure enough he comes in and completely shuts down the Rangers while throwing a complete game shut out.
Pitching
As mentioned Brett Cecil was fantastic, a complete game shut out and he only gave up 4 hits and 2 walks. He stuck out seven and while I unfortunately missed most of the game things had to be going well to completely get through the powerful Rangers lineup.
Offsense
The Jays only scored 3 on the night, but it was 2 more then they would need with the way Brett Cecil was pitching. On the night they the team scattered a few hits and walks here and there but nothing really ever got going. That was until the ninth sixth where the Jays hit 3 doubles in the inning to cash 3 runs. Yunel Escobar went 3-3 with a BB on the night scoring a run. Eric Thames went 2-4. Bautista, Encarnacion and Snider each had one hit apiece which was the aforementioned doubles.
The Jays have Monday off before coming back home to the Baltimore Orioles on Tuesday. It was a great way to end the series and wash the bad taste away from the first two games of the series. Hopefully with the day off tomorrow the Jays won't lose the momentum and good mojo from this one.
Jays of the day: Brett Cecil .503, Jose Bautista .113, Yunel Escobar .106
No suckage Jays.
143 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Terrific start by Cecil..
I was not expecting this from him tonight..
"Think of me like Yoda, but instead of being little and green I wear suits and I’m awesome. I’m your bro—I’m Broda!"
- Barney Stinson
I do occasionally go on Youtube...
Maybe his keyboard was upside-down?
The holy crusader of internal logical consistency
by Gerse on Jul 24, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Oops my bad. I knew that.
Fixed.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Cecil gets a Super Jay of the Day!
Also, even though there had been a few ugly games, the Jays have gone 9-4 since July 8.
And in other news… the Mariners lost again. They’ve lost 15 in a row, headed to Yankee Stadium tomorrow night.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
I missed most of this game too. Just saw this amazing play by 3B Bautista in RF!
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17259995&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_17259995&v=3
The shift worked perfectly… makes Farrell/Butters look real smart.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 12:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Brett Cecil game score: 84
From Baseball Reference Blog: Has been Toronto’s highest so far. Cecil has pitched 14 straight shutout innings.
My research using B-R’s play index: By game score, Cecil is tied for 79th in best pitched games in Jays history. Cecil has tied his career high game score (last time: May 3, 2010 against CLE – 8.0 IP, 1H, 1ER, 10 K, 2 BB).
@BBBMinorLeaguer
Farrell knows how to get pitcher’s **** together, and don’t you forget it!
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
can Farrell pls deliver that msg to the bullpen during closing time
by noname3 on Jul 25, 2011 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Next up...
Home series vs Baltimore (yay!)
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Jul 25, 2011 1:03 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Meanwhile, exciting game out in Vegas! http://64.34.190.77/MiLB/GameAudio/LiveStreamFlash/pcl_las_vegas_51s
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
“No suckage Jays.”
I nominate whoever chose that haircut, and every teammate who didn’t chew his ass for it ;)
by TamRa on Jul 25, 2011 5:25 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If he keeps pitching like this I dont care
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
While I tip my hat to Mr. Cecil, can someone get a hat on his hairdo?
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
I do still worry about the fastball
Cecil gave up some long fly balls again. Strikeouts are good, but him not getting groundballs might limit him to being an average or below average starter.
His fastball was sitting between 89-92. Not bad, not great. But he mixed in his slider and some offspeed junk really well
and then he went 93-94 in the 9th
guess he got a ltitle excited
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 25, 2011 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Got to remember that he has always been a fly ball pitcher too.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Yep,
And while this year is obviously skewed a bit more you have to remember he hasn’t even thrown 60 innings as of yet and those first starts before being sent down were bloody awful.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Escobar: hitter of game
It needs to be said: Escobar had an excellent game in the leadoff spot. He went 3/3 and started off the big inning in the 6th, setting the table for Joey Bats for the first run of the game. He had also put himself in position to score 2 other times, but the big boys took until the 6th to bring him in. On the negative end, Hill had 3 SO’s and grounded out on the heels of back-to-back-to-back RBI doubles; I’m not sure how that doesn’t deserve “suckage”
Definately a Doctastic start
37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
OT but
Jays ranked 27th in FanGraphs list of “necessity of getting some trades done” by the deadline.
I like this snippet:
#27 – Toronto Blue Jays
By signing Jose Bautista and Yunel Escobar to team-friendly contracts and getting rid of Vernon Wells and Alex Rios‘ salaries, Alex Anthopolous has set the Blue Jays up to make a strong push at Prince Fielder and Albert Pujols in the off-season.
Emphasis mine.
WAR... WAR never changes.
I don't understand...
Why do we need a new first baseman? What more does Adam Lind have to do for us? If we do get Fielder or Pujols, is Lind gonna be traded? Shouldn’t we be looking at getting a 2B instead of 1B?
Or do we want Fielder or Pujols as our DH?
And no, that’s not sarcasm, I’m honestly curious.
by stratford_girl on Jul 25, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes I believe the idea is that Lind and Fielder would split time at DH/1B
by WizardofNaz on Jul 25, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
No Feilder, No Pujols, IMNSHO
First, I have significant concerns about big contracts, particularly, what it will take to land a free-agent. I think very few of the big free-agent contracts signed in the past couple of years will ultimately prove to be good signings.
Feilder would be a horrible signing. If Feilder is as big and slow as he is currently at 27, what do you think he’ll be like when he’s 30, 32, etc. If you think Molina is slow on the basepaths, wait ‘til you have Prince. I’m not interested in seeing 9-3 putouts. He’s a defensive liability. His value will decline rapidly once he’s 30. As a Boras client, you KNOW that he’ll get a big, long contract from some gullible GM. Sure, If I could sign him for 3 years, $75M, I’d probably do it, but Boras will be looking for twice that money.
As for Pujols, he’s an excellent player, but he’s 31 and the insane numbers numbers I’ve heard blow the mind. If I could get him for 7/140 then I’d do it, but longer or more money, no way.
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Jul 25, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
he wouldn't play first he'd DH
Given how solid Lind has been, so reason one is moot. He’s slow, but he’s a freaking .410 wOBA hitter. Do you understand how rare it is to add one of those to your lineup with team control? And he’s going to be 32 in FIVE SEASONS. He’s just entering his prime! Do you really think Brett Lawrie is enough to transform this 500 ballclub into a playoff team without fixing the black hole at DH (ignoring the starters, bullpen and Aaron Hill)?
WAR... WAR never changes.
by benk on Jul 25, 2011 1:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I do appreciate and understand the love for Fielder. but, I see enormous down-side risk to a Fielder signing. First, while a normal player would be heading into 5 years of prime, Fielder’s body shape is not that of a normal player. He’s carrying far too much weight, which will cause his skills to deteriorate more quickly. Second, I think you need the flexibility of being able to put your DH somewhere in the field occasionally, which in the Jays case means taking Lind out. Third, as I said before, he’s a Boras client, which to me makes him nearly unsignable, except by teams that spend stupidly.
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Jul 26, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
you can put him at first
which he will play poorly, just as Ortiz does in Interleague. Boras client means he’ll get a lot of money, but he’ll also get a lot of money because he’s as close guaranteed 5+ win first baseman as you can find (that isn’t named Pujols)
WAR... WAR never changes.
I would love to see Fielder in a Blue Jays uniform
I know he’s gonna cost an arm and a leg, but the ownership’s got money.
I wonder if he can be converted to a second baseman?
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Just because "ownership's got money"
…doesn’t me they should be stupid. Rogers is a publicly traded company with shareholders. You pension fund probably has Rogers shares. If they spend unwisely, that will drive down the stock price and dig the team into a hole that hurts it competitiveness in the future. BJ Ryan’s contract was a disaster. Thank some deity that Burnett opted out of his contract. Somehow St. Alexander unloaded Wells’ contract. The smartest thing JPR did was expose Rios to waivers.
Sure, once we’re on the verge of making the playoffs, we should spend, but we have to spend wisely.
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Jul 25, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
“…doesn’t mean they should be stupid.” and “Your pension fund…” and “…hurts its competitiveness”
Terrible proofreading this morning.
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Jul 25, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, I don't think that Prince would be an unwise investment to make
I just mentioned that the ownership’s got money as one of the reasons why the Jays can sign him. I would never advocate just throwing money at a pitcher (knowing how fickle they can be) but for someone like Prince Fielder, if the price is right, the Jays should go for it.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it would
1B/DH is an easy position to fill, and the Jays have got Cooper and McDade as potential options.
Fielder has already accumulated 33.9 negative fielding runs and 26.2 negative baserunning runs as per Fangraphs. The guy is going to get more money than he ’s worth.
he's not playing first
Lind is. And you may notice that he compiles year after year of tremendous production even with fielding and baserunning.
WAR... WAR never changes.
by benk on Jul 25, 2011 1:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Cooper and McDade vs Fielder?
There is really no comparison there, at least not that I would think. Yes the dollar amt is the difference but if that is the reason we might as well be the Marlins.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
but there's far from any guarantee
that there will be a better place to spend the money. we’re looking at a pretty young (especially for a FA), proven elite player that fills a need. that doesn’t happen very often at all
WAR... WAR never changes.
There are only a few holes on the team. 2nd base included, all of that money cant really be invested there as there is no option for it.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Prince Fielder
has set himself up to receive over $200 million dollars in total contract value. Our team can not afford to give one player that kind of money.
My bet is $210 million over 8 years….. I will say “no thank you” to that deal, especially if the guy is going to DH, and can’t play the field at an average level.
This shouldn’t/wont happen…
we can't afford it
despite a $50M payroll with the flexibilty of going up to $140M (as per Rogers)?
WAR... WAR never changes.
Huh?
The same organization that payed Vernon 20mill+ can definitely afford to pay a player who is much better than him.
I don’t know if it’s the best move but they can afford it.
Ok
So yes we can afford it. But does it make any fiscal sense? No.
We gave VW a long term deal after a 5.8 WAR season. How many years has Fielder had with a season of that calibre or better? Two including this one, assuming he’s healthy the rest of the way.
We would be paying 25+ million for the next 8 years on a guy we don’t plan to put in the field? Where is the fiscal responsibility? We would essentially be betting our whole future on one player.
No thank you. Let’s stick to the plan, and spend our money on holes we need to fill, and retaining our talent.
It would make more sense...
To throw $40 million over 2 years to get David Ortiz.
Not saying I want that to happen at that price, but it would make more sense than a 8 year/200 mil+ deal for Fielder.
no we wouldn't
we’d be betting 1/6 of our payroll (Delgado was more than a third) on a 4+ win bat under team control during our contention stage.
WAR... WAR never changes.
I’ll believe we are a $140 million dollar team when I see it.. :P
I don’t think the fourth best AL offense needs to go out and sign a DH to put us over the top. What if he goes out and hits like 2010? Or 2008? If he hits like that (I know its still a great slash line and all) then he is a complete bust.
Fielder will get the richest contract in baseball history to someone not named A-Rod. You want the Jays to make that player their everyday DH for the next 8 years? After he has had two down years out of the last four where he has been valuable, but not 25+ million valuable.
No thanks. I’ll pass. Way too much risk for a team that isn’t the Yankees.
Trust in our plan, and make additions that make sense!
if you think a .380 wOBA
means a guy is a “complete bust” then we’re most certainly not seeing eye to eye.
you think this guy is going to get a bigger contract than A-Rod? I’m expecting 6/150, and I’ve heard “unnamed execs” (yeah yeah, but it’s better than my completely unfounded opinion), and I’ve seen $180M and I’ve seen $105M so I’m going in the middle. if he gets $250M, then yeah, that’s a little much.
okay, now talking about “fourth best AL offense.” first off, we’re actually 5th in AL (6th in MLB) by wOBA. second, do you know how many points of wOBA separate us from nineteenth in wOBA? fifteen points. that’s it. do you know how many points separate us from first? twenty-nine we’re good, but we’re front of the pack. (if you’re wondering, the Sox and Yanks are 1-2 in wOBA. coincidence? I think not).
another point: you don’t get bonus wins for “value additions” at the end of the year. at some point, this team needs to spend money, even if Lawrie turns into Schmidt.
WAR... WAR never changes.
We are seeing eye to eye
But a .380 wOBA (.370 in 2008) from a DH isn’t worth 25+ million. If he’s making 10 million that’s fine, but if he’s the second highest paid player in the league and he’s your DH, you are in trouble.
I said he is going to be right behind A-Rod in total dollars… I realize I could be wrong, but he will be in line for over 22 million per season for 6-8 years at a minimum. I said I’m expecting 8 years/210 million.
What would our wOBA have been if we had a league average 3rd baseman in for the season? Or what if we had signed Adrian Beltre? My point is we don’t need to spend 9 figures to upgrade our offense… I don’t want to debate adding Beltre.
I know we need to spend money. I know Prince is a great player. My point is we shouldn’t be grossly overspending on players and acquiring a DH for one of the richest contracts in MLB history.
If you want a .380 wOBA
why not grossly overpay for David Ortiz? The Red Sox won’t do it, and I bet he’d jump ship for a bunch of coin. It would be a short term deal so it wouldn’t mortgage the future and the risk would be considerably lower.
You also steal a .380 wOBA player from the Sox…
because he doesn't fit in nearly as well
with the Jays contention window, is 39 (IIRC) years old, is in nearly as poor shape as Fielder, and you’re also assuming that saved money now doesn’t turn into spent money later (which might or might not be the case).
and “stealing players” makes no sense, considering they could easily sign Prince Fielder to replace him.
WAR... WAR never changes.
Either way
Ortiz would cost less for 2012 in almost any scenario… And then the Red Sox would have to win a bidding war on a player that would have to be giving away the glove for the resto of his career. A tough sell for any GM.
but at some point
you have to start taking risks if you want to win. yeah, add Lawrie, some experience and a decent bullpen and maybe this team wins 88-90 games (though I doubt it). if the Jays are going to take the next step, they need to actually trade some assets (such as picks through FA comp) so they can build a team that’s built around more than one elite player. no, Fielder’s not going to transform this team overnight, but he fills a gaping hole with an elite player that, despite his size, probably won’t start declining for at least a few years, and if Ortiz has taught us anything it’s that big guys can be productive well into their late 30s
WAR... WAR never changes.
For sure.
I’m all for us spending some $$ and really competing for a playoff spot. I just don’t think Fielder would be right for us (Dollars/term of deal/ position he’d play). Agree to disagree..
Fun debate. I always enjoy reading BBB but rarely post. Thanks benk for your views!
I will say that I would have a hard time not getting excited for next years team if Fielder was on our roster. I actually would be thrilled. I just don’t think it would work out in the end….
another issue
is that there really aren’t any other elite players at other positions on the market. It’s not like if we save money by not signing Fielder/Pujols and acquire a less expensive option to DH we can just go and spend that money on a 4-5 win second baseman or SP or whatever. The FA market next year is basically Fielder/Pujols and then not a whole lot.
And Cooper/McDade/anyone else in the Jays’ system, from what I’ve read, do not project as anywhere close to Fielder-type offensive production (very very few players do, and even fewer actually meet those expectations), and those guys won’t hit their primes until the compete-by-building-around-Bautista window has largely closed.
Fielder is about as proven a commodity as you can possibly get. Is there a chance he breaks down halfway through the deal? Sure. But that was the case with the Jose deal, and every other medium-to-long term FA signing ever. Just make him hit and he won’t have the same wear-and-tear on his body as if he had to play 1B. And he can hit a tonne (the metric kind).
I personally think the Yankees will make him a godfather offer this offseason after coming in (gasp!) second with the Posada black hole at DH, but I’d love the Jays to make a big play for him and maybe even land him.
Ortiz is 35
…not that I’d be a fan of signing him either, but a 2/40 contract for Big Papi is far lower risk than the insane money Prince is likely to get.
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Jul 26, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Or 50-60 Million $$$...
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
since he went vegan
he looks alot better. There was a milwaukee game on tv this year that I watched, and I couldn’t believe how much he slimmed down. Could he go a bit more, probably, but when he broke in I couldn’t believe a guy could play at his level weighing that much. The danger is that he has probably slimmed down because he knows his payday is coming and once he signs, who’s to say he doesn’t put it back on.
I didn't know he's vegan
I mean I’m OK with it… I have vegan friends…. but I’m just surprised. When he was a kid he made that great McDonald’s burger commercial. Who would’ve guessed that he would come out one day and say he’s vegan?
No offence, but if he does come to the Jays I hope he doesn’t turn Snider vegan.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 26, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
There is probably zero chance of Snider becoming vegan.
But, I wonder how many athletes are vegan. You’d think they’d need a ton of protein.
They have a whole army of support staff behind them with trainers and nutritionists so if they make that choice Im sure they are well prepared to supplement their diet with pills and proteins.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Not to mention there is more protein in things like nuts etc than in most meats anyways.
by WizardofNaz on Jul 26, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
They probably do get a ton of help
But it seems like it would be difficult in that you have to look for supplements.
I shouldn't have said vegan
More vegetarian/ doesn’t eat meat anymore, I don’t think he follows the philosophical beliefs that the majority of vegans have
IIRC he started it a couple years ago for health reasons, liked it and has stuck with it.
by WizardofNaz on Jul 26, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Did anyone see Cecil's interview after the game
He honestly looked like he was about to cry. he was so happy with his performance he was almost crying. I love it. I love his hardwork and dedication I really hope this is his turnaround that he needed.
"Big Gulps Eh, Well See ya later" - Lloyd Christmas
" You Gus ready To Let The Dogs Out" "What?" " you Know, Who Let the dogs out rough rough rogh rough" - Zack Galifinakis - The Hangover
by PaullyPforPrez on Jul 25, 2011 10:22 AM EDT reply actions
cecil
Definetly cecils best game in terms of velocity and location, he still had a few balls up, but was consistently in the 88-92 range hiting 93 in the 9th inning. While the breaking balls looked pretty good as well.
by daman316 on Jul 25, 2011 10:49 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Cecil
Threw at pitch at 94 in the ninth. Velocity is over-rated anyway – it’s all about location and changing speeds (remember Marcum?)
by Paul Chicago on Jul 25, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
velocity is actually not overrated
there is a definite correlation between velocity and both whiff rate and GB%, both of which increase a pitchers’ effectiveness. Fangraphs has done multiple demonstrations of this, and other sites probably have too.
This doesn’t mean certain guys can’t be very successful pitchers (Marcum) or even super-duper-mega-stars (Maddux), but more velocity is better than less velocity.
I went back to read that Confidence in the Bullpen post from a while back but I guess it was deleted?
? Not sure.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Weird you can see it in the achive but cant access it.
It is likely something to do because of the sponsor. Since those posts had specific sponsored headers, and the sponsorship has expired SBNation removed the header causing the post to go into hiding or delete or something similar.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Hm
Not really a big deal. I just wanted to go back and laugh at our naivety, thinking the bullpen was going to be great…
This is one of the reasons I am frustrated
I believe the Jays are 19/36 in save opportunities and they are 9.5 games out of a wild card spot. If we had a decent closer (BTW, is that guy from Pittsburgh still perfect?), we would be contending right now. Not in a year or two, but now. When Lind came off the DL, he said the Jays could contend this season. Yet all we hear from Management is talk about the future …
We didn’t lose all the games where a save was blown. Also, there could have been multiple saves blown in one game.
Yes, I will have to look that up
But still, you have to admit with a good closer we would probably have won at least 4 or 5 more games than where we stand today.
I think Anthopoulos should just trade for Bell
just so people can stop saying “we need a good closer”
Choose me, Ash!
I learned from the B.J. Ryan experience!
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That needs to be on a shirt.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Well FF didn’t cost the Jays $47 million
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
when people say "we need a legit closer"
they mean “I will continue to complain until we get the next Mariano Rivera, and only then will I, ex post facto, agree that we have acquired a legitimate closer”
no
they mean “let’s construct a robot that never, ever in a million years blows saves, can pitch on -1 days rest, can throw 2 innings if need be, and also signs for less than market rate for 1 year +1000 team options”
WAR... WAR never changes.
FWIW, i agree
but you aren’t going to win that fight around these parts =P
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 25, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Twilight Zone?
Thanks guys. Sometimes it seems like a whole another world when I come to these parts …
Its just a semantics issue.
No one is saying we don’t need a better bullpen. Its our issue with closers. Closers as a role is over-rated. Your best relief pitcher should be used in the highest leverage spots. In many situations that isn’t the ninth.
So in regards to that because the role is over-rated most people (me included) believe you can fill the position relatively easily and cheaply from within.
Look in the past few years. Yes Kevin Gregg gave us heart attacks but at the end of his year look at his stats vs some of the closers not named Rivera and he did perfectly fine.
Good teams have good bullpens. Just wanting a good closer isn’t enough.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I know closer debate is semantics
But how do you know when the highest leverage situation is going to be, I mean I’ve read the articles on the highest leverage situations, but in the 7th how does a manger know if that will be the highest leverage situation. Is it not hindsight being 20/20?
you don't know
but the highest leverage situation is in the 9th inning much less often than you might think. 7th inning, 1 out, bases loaded, up 1 – you can take a pretty good guess that that will be the highest leverage situation in the game; and if not, it’s still a very good time to use your closer
WAR... WAR never changes.
you don't know for sure
but if you are up by 1 with the bases loaded in the 7th, the chances of that NOT being the highest leverage situation in the game are pretty damn small.
And even once in a while if the small chance that you end up still up by 1 with the bases loaded in the 9th comes to fruition, it still wasn’t a bad decision to use your best reliever in the 7th. You’ll just have to bring in your second best guy in the 9th the few times that actually happens.
But, if you don’t bring in your best reliever in that situation in the 7th, you are going to get burned a lot more often than you will be right by saving your best guy for the 9th
because managers often bring in their closers in the ninth inning if they have a lead
regardless if its a 1 run lead or a 3 run lead. In a 1 run lead, its a good move. In a 3 run lead, its an awful move.
Choose me, Ash!
We need better bullpen pitchers
It’s very serious.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Exactly… we need more than one guy who goes out in the 9th inning. A true “closer” should be the guy who gets all the tough outs in the toughest assignments regardless of inning. For instance if due up in the 8th was Texeria, ARod Cano wouldn’t you want your best reliever to face those 3 instead of putting out a lesser pitcher and letting your “closer” go out against Gardiner, Posada and Jeter.
Fingers Crossed!
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Not intentionally.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
didn't we say that last year?
Only to bring in a whole new crop of guys who turned out to be no better than last year?
Wilner talked about it in a blog post
The Blue Jays have blown 16 save opportunities in 14 games this season. In those 14 games, the Jays are 5-9, which is pretty remarkable. You’d expect something more like 3-11 or 2-12. There have been two games in which the Jays’ bullpen blew two save opportunities, and the Jays actually won one of those, beating the Red Sox 7-6 in 10 innings in a game in which Marc Rzepczynski blew a save in the 8th and Frank Francisco blew another one in the 9th.
Of the 16 blown saves, three have come in the 7th, five have come in the 8th and eight have come in the 9th. Francisco has four of the blown saves, all of which have come in the 9th inning, while Marc Rzepczynski also has four, none of which have come in the 9th.
But what about the opposition? If you’re going to hold these blown saves against the Blue Jays, then you have to consider the save opportunities that the Jays have forced their opponents to blow. While the Jays have 16 blown saves, they have forced only nine. But while the Jays have lost nine games in which they have blown a save, they have won seven games in which their opponent has blown a save.
I don't know if this is sarcastic....
But if a reliever comes in and allows the game to become tied or gives up the lead, he gets a blown save. I think…
Doesn't seem to make much sense
How can you blow a save if you aren’t in line to get a save in the first place?
Onions Baby Onions
Relievers can get saves by pitching 3 innings even if your team is up by more then 3 runs.
1. He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team;
2. He is not the winning pitcher;
3. He is credited with at least ⅓ of an inning pitched; and
4. He satisfies one of the following conditions:
1. He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning
2. He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat or on deck
3. He pitches for at least three innings
So a pitching coming in during the 7th and blows a lead gets credited with a BS
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I’ve heard/read that you have to come in with at least 1 out in the 7th to get a BS. But I haven’t had a chance (or remembered) to look it up…
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, which in my mind is weird.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jul 25, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah he makes it not sound as bad
but still when you look at save pertcentage and the Jays rank 29th ahead of Houston and behind Baltimore, Washington, and Cubs, it shows how bad the BP has been. Not sure where to find the stat but I’d guess the Jays have to be near the top of causing blown saves, anyone know?
that does not show "how bad the BP has been"
It’s been great in the middle innings. that’s just as valuable. Middle of the pack/above average ERA/(x)FIP too.
what about
in the 7th inning with nobody out but a man on second, with a switch-hitter in the hole?
WAR... WAR never changes.
Brett W - Not worth the aggravation
If all innings were valued the same, why are the top ‘closers’ paid in the 10-15 million range whereas those precious middle innings relievers make 1/10 of that? But since their stats can’t explain that, it mustn’t be true.
no
but you have less innings to get that run back. I get what everyone who hates the “closer” label is getting at, and I know I’m not goign to convince any one otherwise, and I don’t really believe in the true closer role, but I don’t discount near as much as others. Yeah it doesn’t make sense to use your best reliever with a 3 run lead in the 9th just so he can get the save, but a manager has to manage his bullpen as well, which I think sometimes gets forgotten about.
good relievers are valuable
but using your closers purely in save situations doesn’t make any sense (unless your pitcher just threw 8 innings of shutout ball and you’re up 3 and have a day off the next day, then sure)
WAR... WAR never changes.
because the market is flawed
thats why general managers like Friedman succeed. they take advantage of the flaw in the market.
Choose me, Ash!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bluebird Banter
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
