Jesse Litsch Recalled from Vegas
by Tom Dakers on Jul 28, 2011 10:39 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays News
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PrintJesse Litsch is coming back, John Farrell said he would pitch out of the pen. I don't understand why they would do that. Carlos has been fine but he's thrown a lot of innings (for him) and he did a much better job as a long reliever. He's also been hit a bit harder lately.
P.J. Walters is trading places with Litsch. At least we got a chance to see him.
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Well I think Jesse will be back in the rotation shortly
As long as he is healthy he is highly effective.
37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
You have to think someone will want EE. Although his perceived suckage at third, although he was great the last week, probably hurts his chances.
by Nadia on Jul 28, 2011 11:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In a move that is truly beyond belief, the Toronto Blue Jays traded Edwin Encarnacion, Joel Carreno, Darin Mastroianni, and a PTBNL or cash considerations to the Colorado Rockies in exchange for Ubaldo Jimenez. It is also confirmed that Alex Anthopoulos will win the MLB Executive of the Year Award every year for the next 10 years.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
by Frag on Jul 29, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If EE is traded to the Rockies...
…his homers will be landing in Billings, Montana!
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Jul 29, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You've gotta believe another pitcher will be going somewhere.
by Defense Counts! on Jul 28, 2011 11:48 PM EDT reply actions
Probably Rauch or FF, supposedly the Braves were interested in Rauch..so Rauch is more likely..
"If you are not sure, ask yourself, "What would Ted do?" Then do the opposite."
- Barney Stinson
I do occasionally go on Youtube...
by Joseph Kirby on Jul 28, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t make much sense to me either. Villanueva’s starts seem to be consistently about 5 innings long, and then they need multiple relievers every time because they don’t have a long guy. Make him the long guy again, and then they’ll be prepared if one of the starters fail.
I've been looking at the sky
I liked Walters in his brief appearance
I have to admit, I like what I saw from Walters tonight, has nice movement on his slider and decent fastball.
I agree, not sure if he’ll last in the AL East, but he does have some very nice movement on all of the pitches I saw him throw.
"If you are not sure, ask yourself, "What would Ted do?" Then do the opposite."
- Barney Stinson
I do occasionally go on Youtube...
by Joseph Kirby on Jul 29, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I've stopped trying on the Litsch is no good crowd
But any pitcher that has ERA’s under 5 for his first 2 seasons in the AL East, then misses the next two because of elbow and hip troubles, is always going to be welcomed into the rotation by me.
its funny how people think that average makes him bad
Average = Average, better then some and not as good as others…If a guy like Litsch is your #5 option you are in great shape as far as your rotation goes.
37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
Exactly… if you assume that the 5th starters for each team should fall into the worst 20% of pitchers in the league and you have a guy who is probably around the lower 40% range of all starters doesn’t that mean that he’s better than a 5th starter? I would’ve said 50% range but I don’t think he should fall in with the #3’s
not when your team has as many potential holes as the Jays
and is in the AL East
WAR... WAR never changes.
Agreed. But that was a general statement for contenders.
Its an overlooked position for playoff runs down the stretch
Litsch deserving
Litsch lost his place in the rotation due to injury, not “suckage”. He doesn’t deserve to be left in the minors. I’m ok with him being in the bullpen for now. Maybe he’ll heat up down there, but it’s also very nice to have him around and ready to pitch if one of the starters crashes out a couple of innings into their start.
combination
of several injuries over three seasons and poor results in between the injuries.
Just wrote this on the recap but i'll write it again...
Why would you prefer Litsch starting ahead of Carlos?
Does he have better stuff? i am a fan of if it works dont change it. for all intent and purpose, CV has been doing that (in his own special way).
if litsch is as good, he will get stints at long relief soon enough and hopefully show he can do a job again. He was sent down to the minors for a reason.
its funny
Villanueva was a middle reliever/occasional spot starter before this year, with no exceptional peripherals shown except in last season, and suddenly he’s better than the guy who posted a sub 4 FIP in the AL East.
COLBY RASMUS
What's up with the hate of Carlos Villanueva and/or the unconditional love for Litsch?
Carlos never had the opportunity to start in Milwaukee, but had always wanted to. He’s only 27, and pitching in the AL East he has managed a very impressive 3.60 ERA. Litsch? Not so. I love how CV mixes his off-speed stuff effectively, and yeah sometimes he doesn’t have dominating performances but always manages to be in a position to win some ballgames at the end of the game. Stop bashing CV.
by Marcos Montenegro on Jul 29, 2011 6:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Nobody's bashing Carlos. And no-one has said they hate him. (Where do you get this stuff?)
But CV was more effective as a long reliever than he has been as a starter. What’s more, he’s not used to pitching so many innings, so he will have to be shut down soon anyway.
by Defense Counts! on Jul 29, 2011 6:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Litsch has never posted a FIP of sub 4
His best season FIP-wise was 2008 with a 3.58/4.29/4.20 ERA/FIP/xFIP.
As of right now, I don’t see how Litsch deserves the spot over Villaneuva, nor how it benefits the Jays to give it to him. If innings count becomes an issue, or Mills’ start is just to showcase him for a possible deal this weekend, then I do think Litsch should get a spot in the rotation.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jul 29, 2011 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
...
He was sent down to the minors for a reason
CV was picked up for nothing, for a reason too.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions
There was a reason....
…and apparently it was the Brewers thought ERA was the best way to evaluate a pitcher’s performance.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
To be fair though
there was a reason we got Morrow on the cheap too, because his numbers as a reliever were poor. I think current performance should out weigh past performance unless there are red flags showing up in the data (too small of a sample, low BABIP, etc.)
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jul 29, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
there are red flags
his HR/FB%, which is half of what it is over his career. unless he suddenly drank matt cain’s magic juices, I don’t think thats sustainable
COLBY RASMUS
Matt Cain has magic juice?
Or does he pitch in a pitcher friendly park, in a pitcher friendly division, in a pitcher friendly league?
No, it's magic juice
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/dave-righetti-lord-of-the-hrfb-rate/
Lawrie is not going to play 2B. McGowan is not going to close. Enough.
that's not entirely right
he pitches in a pitcher friendly park (+league/division) but that can’t entirely explain it, hence the magic juice.
WAR... WAR never changes.
I know, I just prefer to only focus on the magic juice
Lawrie is not going to play 2B. McGowan is not going to close. Enough.
I have some serious problems with that article
the first and foremost being that Wolfersberger made no attempt to identify how their pitchers are keeping flyballs in the park.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
hence
magic juice
anyway, I’ve been mostly kidding.
I think the point is that he doesn’t know either. No one does. We have simply been able to observe it over a very large sample size.
Lawrie is not going to play 2B. McGowan is not going to close. Enough.
it's large...
I don’t know if I’d say “very large.” besides, it’s a small enough difference (though it’s statistically significant) that it could still be a result of random variation (or an underestimation of the park effect, which Wolfersberger alludes to)
WAR... WAR never changes.
In his last year with the Brewers....
….he posted a 11.49 K/9 and a 3.24 xFIP in 50 IP. As far as most recent preformances go before the trade, I would call that impressive.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
doesn't it surprise you that, for 4 years he posts average K rates and then suddenly becomes brandon morrow?
smoke and mirrors maybe?
COLBY RASMUS
Absolutely.....
But as his most recent season he should have had more value than what the Brewers got for him and the above poster dismissing him because he was attained so cheaply was hardly conclusive proof of anything except maybe that the Brewers messed up.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
except he is nowhere close to sustaining those numbers in any other point in his career?
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Not arguing that he had...
..or was capable of that over a prolonged time. However in 2009 and 2010 he gave the Brewers 120 innings of relief with a xFIP of around 3.50. That is not an ace reliever but also not someone without any value. The Brewers just seemingly were blinded by ERA.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Might be sink or swim time for Mills
I think most people agree that Carlos will need to be either shutdown or moved back to the pen to limit his innings. I personally like him in the current rotation, however next year I think that their will only be enough room for 2 out of the 3 (Mills, Litsch, Carlos) with one being the 5th starter and the other being the long/spot starter out of the pen. So barring a trade I believe that Litsch and Mills will be in the rotation for the duration of the season in the next few weeks.
Mills has had a solid year at Las Vegas, the Jays might have just decided that it is time to give Mills several starts in a row to see if he can pitch in the majors, or if he is just a fringe big leaguer.
by Al Bundy is my hero on Jul 29, 2011 8:23 AM EDT reply actions
This is probably it
Mills is being given a chance to see if he can make it in the majors. They already know what Litsch can do, so now it’s Mills’ turn. If Mills falters, Litsch goes back into the rotation.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
we don't really know what Litsch can do, though
he hasn’t had consistent playing time (not that it’s anyone’s fault, but still) since 2008. it’s entirely possible that he’s recovered fully, or that injuries have made him bad, or something in between. I honestly can’t see Mills building any trade value (since the brass has made it fairly clear he’s not going to start for the Jays), why not just put him in the BP?
WAR... WAR never changes.
Ultimately, Litsch ends up in the bullpen anyway
if everything goes to plan and he stays with the Jays. Morrow and Romero are locks for the rotation and Cecil is better than Litsch, so that’s 3 spots in the rotation. Drabek will take a starting spot so that leaves only one spot. Alvarez, McGuire and Jenkins are all at AA so they’re close. Plus, if McGowan comes back, he comes back as a starter. Litsch’s time as a starter is done if he stays with the Jays, unless a bunch of those guys get hurt/don’t develop properly. Mills is probably being auditioned right now because he’s not going to get a rotation spot next year if the guys mentioned above are ready.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
by that logic
it doesn’t matter who pitches in the starter’s role at all, since given enough time they will be pitching in the bullpen if their name isn’t Ricky, Brett, Brandon, Kyle or Henderson.
if Litsch starts, and pitches like he did in 2008 (not that that’s a sure thing) he will build some pretty significant trade value. when and if he does, he can be traded to make room for Alvarez. until then, I firmly believe he is best suited for a starting role
WAR... WAR never changes.
Yeah, but it looks like the Jays are more interested in showcasing Mills and Villanueva
Litsch is a known commodity. It’s about maximizing assets. Now is the best time to see what they have in Mills since better pitchers (likely) are on their way. Villanueva also holds more trade value as a starter so he continues to start.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Do you honestly think Litsch is better than what he showed in 07-08?
I doubt he is and there is little point putting him in the starting rotation to show it. Mills has very few MLB starts so he needs to get some now before somebody bumps him from the rotation. Villanueva is on everybody’s radar right now, so he has trade value. That value is best maximized if he continues to start.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
he showed in 07-08 (mostly 08)
that’s he could be an average starter which would be GREAT to have at the back of the rotation (and has significant trade value). Mills has very few MLB starts because he’s bad (that’s what the brass seems to think, anyway). continuing to start Villanueva till the deadline makes sense to me, but since he’ll need to be shutdown anyway, Litsch should get the starts after that
WAR... WAR never changes.
Why does Villanueva need to be shut down?
The Verducci rule of increasing innings by about 30 each year applies to under-25 pitchers so Villanueva is not affected by this. Plus, I don’t think the Jays care about his arm anyway if they’re showcasing him. As for Mills, we don’t know if he’s bad since he’s only had a handful of starts. He’s held his own this year in the PCL, which says something. Plus, LHPs sometimes take longer to develop.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Do we really want to blow a guys arm in any situation? Do the Jays want to be that sort of organization that appears to not care about players if they are going to Free Agency?
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I think Villanueva is old enough that it is not an issue
I think a lot of people think he needs to be shutdown because of the Verducci rule, which doesn’t apply in this case
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
oh, that's possible
I’d still bet the Jays don’t run up, like, 170 innings on him. just don’t think they’d take that risk
WAR... WAR never changes.
You do realize that "the Verducci Rule"
is neither set in stone nor the only way to stretch out pitchers’ arms, right?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I don't get it
there is only a few days till the deadline, he’s not getting another start before it.
Shouldn’t this be the point where we start worrying about his arm? what’s left to showcase?
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
The argument goes that since he is older and not under team control to just let him go the entire year and if he blows out his arm who cares.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
you don't think villanueva is a known commodity?
5 years of mediocre relief/spot starting.
COLBY RASMUS
Yeah, but he's hot right now
and just before the trade deadline when everybody scrambles for starting pitching. Some GM might possibly overpay for him.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
its july 29th
hes not pitching again before the deadline
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
also how is he hot?
incase you missed last night
Carlos Villanueva didn’t have a good night. He gave up 2 runs in each of the 1st and 5th innings. He really was lucky to only give up the 4 runs, everything he threw was up and many outs were hit hard. He gave up 2 homers in the first inning and 2 hard hit balls that were just foul, plus 2 fly outs balls to the track
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean his numbers for the year have been quite good.
A GM in need of pitching would trade for that.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
so then why does he need to stay in the rotation
if the deadline is going to pass before his next start. why not save his arm so we don’t look like bad guys?
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't show confidence in a guy if you yank him from the starting rotation just before the deadline
Also, why is his arm being abused by starting? I would guess that the Jays front office has their own metrics to determine how many innings he has left. If they thought he exceeded it, I imagine he would be shutdown.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
if we want to get technical
they don’t have to announce him back to the pen until after the deadline. His arm is being abused because he is throwing more pitches then he has in the past.
He should be shut down as a precaution, we have guys to fill the role. Its not like we are shooting ourselves in the foot for doing it, there is no downside to putting CV back in the pen.
your point about “showcasing for the deadline”, just makes no sense, sorry.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Nobody has said why he needs to be shutdown though
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Because he hasn’t thrown this many innings in 3 years?
Because he started the year in the pen which would have changed his workout schedule and type?
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I am pretty sure I have heard the Jays say
that they are not on a hardset rule in terms of shutting down Villy, because of his age and past work loads. They may end up shutting him down though if his arm begins to tire out.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jul 29, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you think the Jays management doesn't know this?
I think if they believe Villanueva’s arm is in trouble, they will reduce his workload. Plus, starting pitching is usually easier on the arm, since starters have a set routine and don’t have to be ready at a moment’s notice, pitch 2-3 days in a row, etc. It’s the reason they’re bringing McGowan back as a starter, not as a reliever.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
I didnt say they didnt know,
You asked for reasons as to why he could or should be shut down.
I gave them.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
the McGowan thing does not necessarily apply
as we’ve discussed extensively, that likely has a lot to do with the diabetes
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
no, it really hasn't
his numbers look good because his stint as a reliever is mixed in there. As a starter, his ERA is 4.33 and his xFIP is 4.23
COLBY RASMUS
And in his banner 2008
Litsch’s xFIP was…….4.20
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
So because he was 24 at the time.....
his xFIP of 4.20 is so much better than Carlos’ xFIP of 4.23 this season? Please explain.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't know much stock you guys are going to put into this
but CV has had the luxary of facing Baltimore three times, KC, and the reds when there power hitters were in a massive slump.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
It is certainly possible that SOS
could account for some of the performance although it would take some time to analyze since he has also started against NYY twice, TEX, PHI…
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
litsch
oak sea bos tex nyy det bos tam
I can’t see CV putting up better numbers then what he’s doing right now.
Litsch has room to grow, why don’t we see what he can do? i don’t get it.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I didn't at all....
The discussion wasn’t about improvement, it was about whether Carlos was having a good season which you countered he wasn’t using the ERA and xFIP above despite similar numbers being a great year for Litsch. That’s all.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
If you are judging the actual on-field performance...
…then yes. The team doesn’t get any additional value out of a 4.20 xFIP from a 23 year old than they do out of a 27 year old. Like I said above, this discussion wasn’t about the likelihood of improvement or predictive value, it was about dismissing the value of the on-field performance of one player while using essentially the same performance to justify the success of another player.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
and the run-scoring environment of the league
is what makes Litsch’s 2008 so much better than Villanueva’s 2011.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
as said below
Litsch’s xFIP of 4.20 came at a time when teams scored roughly 0.5 more runs per game than they do now. That’s a huge contextual difference.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
That is essentially what Lisch has provided
in terms of his best performance through his career, so I don’t see that as an argument for LItsch taking his spot in the rotation, though it also means that giving Litsch that spot would certainly be defensible.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jul 29, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
correct me if im wrong
but this is a career year for CV, you aren’t going to see him do any better.
Litsch is younger he has more potential
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
It could be true....
…but what are you basing the more potential on besides a 16 month age difference?
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
the year everyone is reffering too
happened THREE YEARS AGO.
its not like we are comparing this season to each other
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough....
….however the difference in their performance in the rotation this year is also negligible with Litsch posting a 3.91 xFIP in his limited time.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Because I didn't already say that?
It is marginally better, in half the sample size, which is where negligible came from. And if you want to go there Carlos ERA and FIP are better than Litsch’s in the rotation.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
so lets fricking see what we fricking have in litsch
instead of comparing his negligibly small sample numbers with villanueva’s numbers
COLBY RASMUS
I don't mean to rant about Litsch
but what potential does he have? All of his pitches are average with the exception of his cutter. There’s nothing special about Litsch that says he will exceed a 4.20 xFIP. He’s not a great control guy like Marcum. He doesn’t have a killer changeup like Romero or Marcum. He doesn’t throw hard with a nasty slider like Morrow. Just because he had some success at a young age doesn’t mean he’ll exceed it. Sometimes, guys don’t develop past their first two seasons.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
i don't even think litsch will be all that much better than villanueva
but i want to find out. why can’t we find out?
COLBY RASMUS
Hi Carlos,
AA here. Look, we are going to put you back in the pen because we would like to see if the pitcher who is probably going to give us the same performance as you but hasn’t been healthy since 2008 can still at least maintain that, at least until he gets hurt again.
How is that better than losing a spot due to injury?
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
We all know the conversation would go more along the lines of protecting his arm from injury.
But thanks for the hyperbole.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
That would be fine...
except that was not the supposition.
i don’t even think litsch will be all that much better than villanueva but I want to find out. why can’t we find out?
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Hi Carlos,
you’re on pace to triple your last year’s IP. Therefore, we’re going to skip a couple of your starts, and then you’ll become the long man, just so your arm doesn’t fall off. okey dokey?
COLBY RASMUS
Hi Alex
Respectfully, I’d rather keep starting. I’m having a terrific year and my arm feels fine. If I can keep going, I’m helping our team win. Also, I’m going to get a great contract offer next time.
(cont'd)
And what’s this nonsense about innings pitched? My arm feels fiAWWWWWFAIVNASPDFJWAPGJSADFAFASFAGOQPMYARRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
COLBY RASMUS
Can someone show me...
…where there is any proof that an extreme innings increase is a precursor to injury? It sure didn’t seem to affect CJ Wilson and even for younger pitchers I believe that the Verducci effect has been shown to be non-predictive by the fine gentlemen over at The Book.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
read this guy's work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rany_Jazayerli#Works
there’s more, but this is the first thing that came up when I looked up Pitcher Abuse Points
WAR... WAR never changes.
Pitcher Abuse Points is a good place to start
Unfortunately, I don’t have a Baseball Prospectus subscription so I couldn’t look up Villanueva’s. An increase in innings is only part of it IIRC. Other factors include types of pitches thrown (i.e. sliders are hard on arms and get more PAPs), pitch counts, etc.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
ahh, cool
to be honest I don’t really know how they work, just that large inning increase generally equals lots of PAPs
WAR... WAR never changes.
it's also the marginal number of pitchers
in each start (and in consecutive starts)
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
i wouldn't be the least surprised if villanueva is traded within the week
not that he would bring in a haul
COLBY RASMUS
Young guys aren't that close on a competitive team
I like the yound pitchers that AA has stocked up in the minors. With the recent addition of Rasmus and the breakout season from Thames and Arencebia coupled with the bounce back season from Lind, the Jays might be in a postion to be knocking on some doors next year. They might not knock them down, but they are getting closer. Having said that, the young pitchers another year away before they break into the bigs, and even once they do it is usually a rough start for the young guys… just as Drabek.
If AA and company feel this team is ready to compete for the wild card or division next year, than I think they need to go out and get another start to compete with Romero and Morrow. If they can add a top 2 pitcher and let Cecil and Drabek round out the rotation and let the Alvarex, McGuire’s and Jenkins continue to develop in the minors than this team could be set up pitching wise for the next decade.
by Al Bundy is my hero on Jul 29, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this more than your original one that started this thread
Next year: Romero, Morrow, Cecil.
I would like to see Drabek as number 4. And if the Jays do sign a SP, that leaves no room for Mills, Litsch or Villy.
If they don’t sign or trade for a SP. Then Litsch and Mills would be competing for th3 5th spot. With the other in the pen with potentially Villy, if he is brought back.
Will be interesting to see if MacGowan can break camp next year.
From Walters' dad on twitter
“He was optioned tonight told he would b starting so he could get pitch count up and be back soon’
Huh??
by Nadia on Jul 29, 2011 9:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
he always started during his time in the minors
maybe Anthopoulos is bringing him back at it
COLBY RASMUS
He is going to be converted to a starter at AAA
see how he handles it, and then may get some starts in September.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jul 29, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
He was already a starter in AAA in Memphis.
I guess the Jays’ brass just want to get a look for themselves, but he’s always been a starter.
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 29, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
and not a very good one,
in my opinion.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
Same
I don’t want to make it sound like you guys got shit in Walters, but you really shouldn’t expect anything out of him.
Of course, you guys better damn well get shit after we traded you Colby Rasmus.
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 29, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Consider us even for Chris Carpenter
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
by JaysfanDL on Jul 29, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The only reason why Litch was recalled to work as a long man would be because he doesn't go deep into the games.
And as the season drags, it’s important that the starters do it.
don't know why you think that
in 2008 he pitched 176 innings in 29 starts (~200-210 innings in a full season), and TJ surgery doesn’t usually hurt a pitcher’s stamina.
if there’s anyone who should be a long man based on the reason you just gave, it’s Villanueva
WAR... WAR never changes.
Hey, I haven't been around long, and reading your comments above, I guess you're right.
Things will work themselves out anyway, us getting flustered about it isn’t going to change anything. CV will be shut down, Litch will start, Mills might stay and Perez will be recalled.
It’ll all happen at _some_point. When is controlled by the FO.
by StreakyJays on Jul 29, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
“Fun to watch, that was awesome,” Rasmus said of his new team’s offensive showing. “I was ready to get in on some of the action. I wasn’t able to do it today but I felt pretty good, I feel good about the situation. I think it’s going to be a good time.”
COLBY RASMUS IS COLBY RASMUS
COLBY RASMUS
no i want proof colby is colby
these are baseless, subjective points. they have no place here.
also
http://lifewise.canoe.ca/Comics/InTheBleachers/2011/07/17/18430781.html?cal=0
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
but, COLBY RASMUS
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
I love how everyone
is giving the rotation spots next year, to a guy with poor K/9 in AA and another guy who can’t even throw his fastball for strikes. Both Litsch and CV pitched in the AL East and posted decent numbers for for 4th/ 5th rotation guys. I would give them every chance to keep their spot in the rotation.
Didnt look like a reply to me.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Except you're never going to win the AL East with those kind of guys
Villanueva and Litsch are ultimately placeholders for the young high potential starters or for a stud starter brought in through trade. I long for the day when we don’t argue about the merits of Villanueva over Litsch. Both are replaceable.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
In a slightly unrelated news, 'Air Miles' McCoy is being optioned back to Vegas.
Think Lawrie is being called up?
Frankly, I'd rather have McCoy
And if any team was foolish enough to claim Teahen off waivers, I’d be happy for them to absorb that contract.
Everybody has a career year
like Litsch in ’08.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Alright, I take that one back
I don’t want to start another Litsch flame war.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
I think it was to make room for Teahen
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Has anyone considered that maybe Mills is being showcased on Saturday? Perhaps AA has been shopping him and he knows there will be several scouts in to watch him.
In the event he gets traded, Litsch takes moves in and fills the spot. If CV, Litsch and Mills are all still around after the deadline you have more options.
Who cares who is marginally better CV or Litsch. CV has pitched better beyond anything we could have asked but he has pitched a lot. I would expect the Jays to be monitoring CV to see how fatigued he is getting. In the event CV needs some down time Litsch would take his place.
I dont see Litsch taking anyone’s spot. Seems like an insurance policy to fill in as needed.
by melochejonathan on Jul 29, 2011 11:31 AM EDT reply actions
i can't check my computer's calander
but isn’t the deadline tommorow?
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
oh my calender on the wall here is weird, i thought july went to 30 (which i thought it was off)
but sunday this week is actually split into 24/31
my bad.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
his LV numbers are solid… not about increasing value. Scouts are there to see if everything they have heard is true… seems very probable considering Mills was told he was going to be in the pen and now he is pitching on saturday
by melochejonathan on Jul 29, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
they want jesus from the yankees
a whole helluva lot.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Apparently they want Montero, Betances and Banuelos from the Yankees
That’s a lot more than I think we’re willing to give.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Heyman
notes we`re still in play for Ubaldo.
Is there an offseason option for finding an(other) Ace for next year?
i knew Jesus loved the Yankees
didn’t know he played for them
WAR... WAR never changes.
by benk on Jul 29, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont see that happening at all. Colorado are wanting prospects for him,
I think the Jays were willing to push ahead with Rasmus because they were able to do it without giving up the farm. So they didnt have to sacrifice their “plan”
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I think JBau has forced The Plan to be amended
they want to compete next year. AA is looking for his Ace.
RICKY ROMERO
i’m not against getting a really good SP, but i’m not willing to give up a D’armaud for it.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen to that....
…d’Arnaud has inserted himself into the mix for the best catching prospect in the minors.
by IamDeadHoratio on Jul 29, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
i would
it`s extremely difficult to have a productive offensive career as a catcher. I wouldn`t bet the farm on young travis.
we`re a front line pitcher away from serious contention and AA knows it. We`ll acquire one either this weekend or in December.
waited this long, no need to rush it now
hopefully drabek is better next year for us
Rommero morrow drabek cecil ____
Not to bad…
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Deck and/or Jenkins could be ready by August of next year. In the mean time I don’t see an issue with CV/Litsch as the 5th starter… or sign someone in FA
by WizardofNaz on Jul 29, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
be a nice treat if mills can put up close to the numbers he has now
I just don’t think we need to try put the pedal through the floor for next year. See how the starting rotation pans out this season, and then decide in the offseason / next deadline
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
then we should trade JBau
because by the time our elite farm system is elite major leaguers, Jose could be on the downside.
it`s not about rushing things
it`s about being ready. can`t wait until 2014 when Buatista is past it.
This club is putting all the pieces together and has the deepest farm in baseball. We have a pittance committed to salaries.
AA will make the move for next year.
The time to make a move like this is now if the price is right.
Make the strategic move to help the team and keep Jimenez away from the Red Sox and Yankees too. Boston and NY won’t have ‘replaceable’ starters like Lackey, Miller, Wakefield, Nova, Garcia, Colon, Hughes, and maybe even Burnett in their rotations after this season, you can bet on that.
If the AL East is tough now, how much tougher then? Jays young core won’t be here forever and if they’re any good might end up helping the Yankees and Red Sox in a few years. Got to start the run sometime soon, and a move to secure a front line starter like Jimenez would certainly help.
by transmogrifier on Jul 29, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Colorado is asking the moon for Ubaldo and pointing to those 2-3 months he was flat out amazing.
Hes a good pitcher no doubt, Im not convinced he is worth the asking price.
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
Some information on walters
His daughter Annabelle was 14 weeks premature and after surgeries and complications she died roughly a month later. PJ was constantly travelling back and forth from the minors to the hospital, and it took a great toll on him
I know some were curious last night. heres a link
thanks to VEB for the info
on his pitching
89 mph fastball supplemented by a plus change and decent curve, I think. I can’t imagine he’ll be successful in the AL East. He works around 85-87
Sounds like he will be passed by the other guys.
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
marcum was pretty successful with a high 80’s FB and plus plus change… not that i’m comparing the two, but there’s more to being successful that just pure stuff.
by luckiswithme on Jul 29, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
he also got shelled a lot
and was apparently very good against alfanso soriano
also
On July 25, 2011, Walters gave up a grand slam to Houston Astros outfielder Carlos Lee. This made Walters and Lee the first pair of players in MLB history in which the batter (Lee) hit grand slams in each of his only two at bats against the pitcher (Walters).
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jul 29, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That's because Soriano sucks against good sliders.
And Walters has a good slider. Unfortunately not everyone has such a clear weakness as Soriano so it didn’t work on the majority of MLB hitters.
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 29, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Who wouldn't be good against Alfie Soriano?
His strike zone apparently extends an extra foot wide and 2 feet below the normal strike zone, ie. can’t lay off the outside breaking ball.
by TakeoutArtist on Jul 29, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i have a great deal of
sympathy for him as a person. it’s a really sad story.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
What the team really needs
is sustained and solid performance.
Not potential – not hype – just actual consistent solid play on offense and defense.
So far – we are getting that from The Monster Bautista,Escobar and Lind.
A nice debut by Thames as well – although he can’t play defense. He is pure DH.
Other than that – its just hype and hope and poor performance.
The potential stuff gets old real quick.
AA still has alot of work to do if he wants to compete in this division or any other division for that matter.
I am confident that AA will get it done.
AA can only do so much.
He’ll give opportunities, get talent, but talent doesn’t turn into good play. It’s up to the players to execute.
I think that the bats that we have, AA isn't going to trade those.
Thames and EE aren’t going anywhere. The bullpen might, but that’s about it.
AA has said before that he’ll trade pitching for hitting, but not vice-versa.
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