I Could Spit on a Stranger: Jays Lose to Mariners 6-5
by jessef on Aug 16, 2011 1:14 AM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
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PrintWell, that was a frustrating loss. After putting up a good effort against Michael Pineda, the Jays fall short, giving up game-tying and -winning homeruns in the bottom of the eighth inning.
Henderson Alvarez put out a decent effort, pitching five innings and doing all right, but not exceptionally well. It does bode well for the future, of course.
The Jays hit Michael Pineda fairly well (5 runs and 3 HR, by Eric Thames, Adam Lind, and Brett Lawrie, over 5 innings) but couldn't do much the rest of the way, merely holding serve until the bottom of the eighth inning, in which Trever Miller gave up a game-tying homerun and Jon Rauch gave up [another] homerun to allow the Mariners to take the lead and, eventually, the game.
I'd write more but: a. the game finished very poorly; b. i'm tired; and c. there is more interesting news tonight anyway, with the signing deadline here.
Jays of the Day: Lind (.244), Thames (.144), and Jesse Litsch (.242)
Suckage: Alvarez (-0.348), Rauch (-0.321), and Miller (-0.301)
We'll get 'em tomorrow . . . I hope.
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Got to love PAVEMENT
Lip balm on watery clay,
relationships hey hey hey
you kiss like a rock
but you know i need it anyway
angle for the ringside seats
when they fall
dont blame me
Bring on the Major Leagues
Bring on the Major Leagues
Bring on the Major Leagues
Bring on the Major Leagues
by Tmcstar on Aug 16, 2011 1:24 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I think something like 2/3 of my post titles are pavement songs
it would be interesting to go back and tally them up
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
1 run game….and farrell puts in miller and rauch, 2 guys that throw meatballs…smart. Frank would have been a better choice.
The manager definitely deserves some of the blame.
He could have left Litsch in for another inning (he used to pitching a lot of innings, after all) and then used Janssen in the ninth.
by Defense Counts! on Aug 16, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Guess we knew there would be days like these afer trading Frasor, Rzep and Dotel
Managing this BP is like a game of Rauchin’ roulette.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 16, 2011 1:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 15 recs
Make this green, guys
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
WHYYYYY was Miller in for the 8th inning???
And WHYYYYY does Rauch give up a million homers???
Jose Bautista has a higher midi-chlorian count than you do.
Perhaps because neither of them is really any good?
by siggian on Aug 16, 2011 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While that adequately answers the second question
it is a very poor answer to the first one
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
We saw the potential of Alvarez but he definitely need that 3rd pitch
though he’s got all the time in the world
Total Internet Points: -1 (Made a mistake on a comment)
yup
I wonder if they toss him in the pen next year, or let him try and develop as a starter in AAA/AA next year
Total Internet Points: -2400
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions
That was Jon Rauch's 7th game this season with a WPA < -0.300
His other “gems” included a -0.817 WPA game back on May 3 against the Rays (his first BS of the season) and a -0.504 WPA game against the Rays back on the 4th of this month.
Jays record for most games with a WPA <= -0.300 in a season by a reliever? Our old friend Kelvim Escobar with 11 back in 2002, the year he had 38 saves. By the way, have you seen his music video?
Now before yall yearn for those times in the yesteryear with Ward and Henke, know that the two of them are on top of the list with spectacular blowups out of the pen (defined as WPA < -0.400): In 1990, Ward had 7 games to set the franchise record, in 1989 Henke had 6 for tied for #2 and the same year Ward had 5 spectacular fails. (Escobar in 2002 and Miggy Batista in 2005 both had 6)
@BBBMinorLeaguer
And you think Rauch's -0.817 WPA effort on May 3 was bad?
There has been 20 worse relief appearances (by WPA)! Just this season, Luis Perez had a -0.826 WPA in Cleveland when he gave up that Hafner grand slam on July 7.
The worst of the worst came on June 7, 2003. Going into the bottom of the 9th in Cincinnati, the Jays were ahead of the Reds 8-5. Cliff Politte proceeded to allow a single, stolen base, then a walk, before Jason LaRue hits a game-tying 3-run homer. Then strikeout, single, walk before Sean Casey singled in the winner, “good” for a -0.960 WPA.
Curious note: out of the 20 worst relief appearances in franchise history, B.J. Ryan had 4 of them (-0.898, -0.899, -0.901, and -0.901)
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
lol with all these -0.800+, -0.300 seems like nothing
Total Internet Points: -1 (Made a mistake on a comment)
See, these stats were meant to make you guys feel better!
(actually if Miller and Rauch’s WPAs were added together you get -0.622)
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Luis Perez also had a +0.740 WPA game on May 28 against the ChiSox this year.
It was the 14 inning game at Rogers Centre.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
i love you
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I remember Henke and Ward's blowups quite well
I always liked Henke but knew he would have the odd bad game. I never trusted Ward until ’92. Actually Henke taught me how flawed pitcher wins were. I remember a couple of seasons where Dave Stieb was close to 20 wins but never reached it because Henke and the bullpen blew leads Stieb gave them. Then Morris gets 20 wins in 1992 despite pitching worse than I ever saw Stieb pitch.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Totally agree with you
Seeing Morris win 20 was almost as disappointing as the Jays losing their final 7 games in 1987 and finishing behind the Tigers. Morris was truly mediocre in 1992, but he got run support, pitched late into games and Henke and Ward were almost untouchable that year. In 1985 Stieb won 14 games but easily could hae won 24.He was that good that year. But Morris was the man because he won 20.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
That's why he's going to the HOF one day, I'll bet
Baseball writers are idiots.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Everyone always said that about him
There was some truth to that, but I saw him give away leads only to get them back and I saw him fall behind early but stick around long enough for the Jays to come back. There was luck involved. In 1985, Stieb handed over a number of leads to the bullpen in the eighth and ninth innings and came away empty handed.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
no doubt, i agree with you
was meant to be a joke. as you said, there may be some truth to morris pitching to the score (trying to get deeper into ballgames by inducing batted balls while ahead) but it is way overstated.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I don't catch on to sarcasm that well
got so used to hearing people say that over the years and being serious
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
implied
the new sarcasm font is not using sarcasm font
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
if you have to use sarcasm font for people to know you're being sarcastic
you’re not doing it right!
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." - Walt Whitman
by hugo on Aug 16, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
woo a hugo sighting
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
We can be Jays fans and still know Rauch is bad and shouldn't be in high leverage situations
So Rauch hasn’t yet had the worst season EVER by a Jays reliever in terms of number of huge blow-ups? Hooray. And we can all calm down because Ward and Henke had similar seasons? Are you kidding me?
Escobar was 26 years old, threw hard, and saved 38 out of 46 games when he had his 11 blow-ups. Rauch is 33, tops out at 89-90 and has managed his blow-ups in just 16 save opportunities.
In 1989 and 1990 Ward was 25 and 26, threw over 100 innings both years, and was developing into an elite closer before injuries shortened that run. And Henke in 1989 was older like Rauch but was still developing as a reliever after a slow start to his careeer, threw hard, had on oba of.205, a whip of 1.02 in 89 innings and was on his way to 6 seasons of 30 plus saves in his career.
Rauch’s level of futility in late innings is in no way comparable to any of these other players you talk about. He should no longer be pitching in those situations.
by touchemalljoe on Aug 16, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I think
Rauch is rapidly running out of chances to pitch late in the game
The problem is that currently the Jays have only two reliable arms in the bullpen, Janssen and Litsch, and you cannot have them pitch every relief inning. Unfortunately, you are going to have to put Frankie Frank, Perez, Miller, or The Big Meltdown at some point and then pray.
Frankie Frank and Perez are ok
Miller’s useless though and I cringe everytime I see Rauch. I just hope Rauch retains his type B status and he’s gone after this year.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
On top of that
Only Romero can consistently pitch late into games. If Alvarez had managed six innings last night, there may have been no need for Miller.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 16, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Cecil has been doing a good job of getting deep into games
But still not as well as Ricky has been doing it
Jose Bautista has a higher midi-chlorian count than you do.
It's true
a major part of the reason why Rauch’s WPA numbers don’t seem so bad comparatively is because of opportunity. Blowing games in the 8th inning is not going to affect your WPA nearly as much as blowing games in the 9th. If Miller/Rauch had blown last night’s game in the bottom of the 9th instead of the bottom of the 8th, it would have been a WPA swing of something like 0.9 instead of 0.6.
On the other hand, I don’t think minorleaguer is trying to say not to worry — just trying to lighten the mood after that atrocious finish. That Farrell consistently refuses to use Casey Janssen (xFIP 2.95, average entering leverage index: 0.82) instead of Jon Rauch (xFIP 4.44; average entering leverage index 1.62) in high-leverage situations still baffles me.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I think they want to put him in a position to rack up wins and saves to keep his type B status
Some team will get desperate in the winter and think they need a proven reliever with nice counting stats, Baltimore I’m looking at you.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
I understand and appreciate that
I was going to question bringing him in last night in the eighth but then remembered the score was tied when he came in so he had a shot at a win. Let’s change “baffles” to “frustrates” . . . ehhhh . . . how about “enrages”?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I hear you
I can’t stand seeing him pitch either. I think enrages is the proper way to feel.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
So Rauch hasn’t yet had the worst season EVER by a Jays reliever in terms of number of huge blow-ups? Hooray. And we can all calm down because Ward and Henke had similar seasons? Are you kidding me? […]
Rauch’s level of futility in late innings is in no way comparable to any of these other players you talk about. He should no longer be pitching in those situations.
I am not comparing Rauch to Escobar, Ward, or Henke directly. I am just stating that even good closers/relievers have their blow-up days. Notice that I selectively only wrote about the horrible appearances. That was the point of my posts—to point out the pitchers who have had worse outings that Rauch. Mainly I did it because I love facts, but secondarily I wanted to do it because it is too easy for people to fall back on the “we need a Ward/Henke” bullpen argument, thinking that they would definitely secure all games and not blow any.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
but the facts don't make your point
The facts show that Racuh’s number of blow-ups occur far more frequently than the comparisons used. And Rauch as a slow-throwing 33 year old is also on an entirely different career arc than the comparison pitchers used. Any fan knows that all relievers blow games, Mariano Rivera just went through a rough stretch actually. And Ward and Henke obviously weren’t perfect, but the facts clearly show there is no comparison between them and what Rauch is doing on a consistent basis – giving up home runs and blowing games!
by touchemalljoe on Aug 16, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh my goodness, what happened to our Moonraker, hes supposed to hit moonshots, not lasers.
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
Janssen for closer. Please!!!
It couldn’t be more obvious.
by Blue Feathers on Aug 16, 2011 9:01 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Janssen for the highest leverage innings please.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
by JaysfanDL on Aug 16, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Keep him raking?
There’s still a couple months left. He could always lose it, if he cools off.
2011 Jays slogan should be "Power and Speed", not just "Hustle and Heart".
Proud member of the AL North
@VagabondBansal
He's gone
AA loves his picks.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
AA values his picks
But he loves team friendly contracts for players with the potential to mash. I would bet that EE is back next year.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Aug 16, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
if edwin keeps hitting
he’s more valuable as a trade piece with a team-friendly contract who will likely get some form of compensation next year anyway than he is as a sandwich pick . . . though sandwich picks are delicious . . . nom nom nom
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
True, you might get more in a trade
Although, EE is more of a DH at this point, so that limits his value to just AL teams.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
unless the NL adopts the DH as part of
the new collective bargaining agreement
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
but, tradition!!
I hate the NL. Why do pitchers still need to bat anyway?
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
by JaysfanDL on Aug 16, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aside from injury concern
I still kind of like this rule. It reminds me of my rugby days, where you’re expected to play both ways.
2011 Jays slogan should be "Power and Speed", not just "Hustle and Heart".
Proud member of the AL North
@VagabondBansal
I like it for that reason too
BUT whenever I’m exposed to it for an extended period (i.e. interleague play) I start to appreciate how boring it is when it’s not a novelty. Throw in a weak-hitting catcher and middle infielder and you’ve got three lousy innings worth of poor hitting every game.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 16, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
hope we sign fielder and not worry about it ;)
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I think signing Fielder would be a mistake
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love the Jays to get Fielder as much as anyone else – but at the right price. And that’s not going to happen. Sure they can afford him now. But I don’t think he’ll sign for less than 6 years and $150M. His contract has a chance to become an albatross and could prevent us from keeping some of our younger talent as they start becoming more expensive.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
but fielder is young talent
He would move us from fringe contenders to serious contenders.
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely, but
what happens 4 years from now when he’s a one dimensional player who’s skills are in decline and you still him another $75M – $100M. Can we rely on Tony Reagins still being around?
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
we look at our world series rings and laugh
i get the risk, but no risk, no reward
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
those rings do have a way of making all else not matter
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
I agree
Honestly, the extra revenue from a world series (or even being playoff contenders), is an enormous (right around Fielder’s weight in gold), amount.
I don’t think anybody would mind 2-3 bad years for fielder, if he can be the tipping point into getting 50K in the seats instead of 20.
At the same time, I’m not sure if he is that person for us. There have to be some disgruntled star out there that is perfect for us.
2011 Jays slogan should be "Power and Speed", not just "Hustle and Heart".
Proud member of the AL North
@VagabondBansal
Prince Fielder is one of the best bats in the league
he’s only 27 – that must counteract some of the injury risk – and fills a need. not only do bats like this, and this young, not come around often, there are more factors that make him very enticing.
first, most of the “big spenders” probably don’t need him – Phillies have Howard, Sox probably won’t let Ortiz go given his season this year and they have A-Gon at first, and Yanks have Tex at first (though they might make him a token offer at DH). second, most FA classes just don’t have top-quality FAs that fill a need for a team so close to being able to contend. we can fill our two biggest positional holes with very good players this season and have them under team control for our window of contention. I understand the “save money and spend when it’s right” strategy, but I honestly can’t see a better opportunity coming any time soon
WAR... WAR never changes.
If it's true it won't be a good investment
Honestly, the extra revenue from a world series (or even being playoff contenders), is an enormous (right around Fielder’s weight in gold), amount.
Prince Fielder is listed at 285 lbs, which is 4560 ounces. Current price of gold is $1,783.60/ounce, thus the worth of Fielder’s weight in gold is just $8,133,216.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nerd posting ^
Thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Aug 16, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
takes one to know one
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I just spilled a box of toothpicks!
I need you to come over and tell me how many are on the floor -hurry, hurry!
Thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Aug 16, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
As low as $7.3 million at the current price of gold
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=285+lbs+*+price+of+gold
Troy ounces! And all this time I've been using avoirdupois!
The US/Imperial system is stupid.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Then he becomes a DH
His hitting probably won’t fall off that much at the end of the contract that he wouldn’t make a passable DH.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
he's already a DH
he loses a tonne of value from defense as it stands. I’d be much happier with Edwin starting at 1B (or Lind, if he doesn’t go anywhere)
WAR... WAR never changes.
you keep him
If he keeps hitting this way through to the end of the season, it’s not a fluke. A hot streak usually lasts 2 weeks. 3 months is something else. He has always been regarded as a hitter with potential and his peripherals are backing up this good run that he is on. Draft picks are nice, but a 29 year old, top third in the league DH for $3M is better. People always say that AA loves his draft picks, but I don’t think that is giving him enough credit for having a plan. The objective in 2010 and 2011 was not to field a team with the best possible players. It was to load up the farm system and evaluate the talent in the organization, developing the players who had a chance to be part of the big picture and seeing what the Jays could get for the ones who wouldn’t be part of it. That part is done now. Most of the pieces are there and the Jays will let those players play in 2012 to see what they need to put the finishing pieces in place for 2013, which will be year 1 of the big picture. EE could be a part of that. A 2012 supplemental round draft pick has less than a 50/50 chance of developing into a player that will be part of it by 2017.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
hill and lind's hot streaks lasted longer
but i see what you are saying. He’s grown on me, and i think if nothing else, he’d be nice to have on the bench
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
if you'd rather a sandwich first round pick
over a 125 wRC+ hitter for 3 million dollars, you’re crazy
WAR... WAR never changes.
you're right about that
but I don’t think they were hot streaks. Something happened to Hill after 2009. Perhaps he lost soem bat speed. I don’t know. But he was a good hitter for a few years before he had his big breakout in 2009. Lind seems to have bounced back somewhat. But you have a good point. His current success doesn’t necessarily mean he’s going to keep it going through 2012. But at $3M it’s a good risk.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
So... No one has mentioned that the Cuban who shall not be named is RAKING...
Was it that he was just bored in NH… Or the PCL’s pitchers/defences are truly that bad..
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 10:59 AM EDT reply actions
confused. who?
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
If I told you... and he started suckin'
They’d have to kill me…
I’ve seen how the crowd turns on those who jinx no-nos…
Let’s just say, he’s hitting for roughly double the average he was at a lower level.
I hope he’s turned a corner and I also hope Dwayne Murphy doesn’t ruin it for us.
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Hech?
Joey kirby talks about him daily, even shows the gameday image of his at-bats.
thats why im confused that you said “no mentioned”
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
only saying stuff like ‘no hitter’ ‘perfect game’ and ‘shutout’ while they are happening are jinxes. :P
by leaflover4ever on Aug 16, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya.. I know.. Just being jokingly careful...
Hitting over .500 for a week is at least equal to a shutout in 1 start for me..
Yea.. but for a guy who’s unexpectedly performing in a SSS after being unexpectedly promoted… it’s been mostly just Joey Kirby and his well-appreciated (by me) Gameday images..
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
YES, PEOPLE APPRECIATE MY WORK!
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
he was hitting well his last few games at AA
Maybe his hitting has turned a corner. Or it’s a hot streak and the PCL. Have to wait and see.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
If he keeps it up...
not like he is.. but .300+ in the next couple weeks, I’d like to see him with the Jays next month..playing 2B?
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
no thanks
bad as Hill’s been, Hech could be a lot worse, and players don’t magically turn from 600 OPS hitters at AA to even acceptable hitters at MLB in a month
WAR... WAR never changes.
by benk on Aug 16, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Please stop.
a. Aaron Hill has won two fielding bible awards.
Hechevarria plays shortstop. I’m confident that, given an offseason and spring, he’d be more than capable of playing second base, but what makes you think he’d even be able to learn second base on the fly, let alone be better than Hill, particularly considering that he’d be adjusting to major league pitching at the same time?"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
i hate sbnation formatting
also, that sounded meaner than it was supposed to. But I really don’t see how you can just assume that Hechevarria would be a better second baseman than Hill is even right now
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Ahhh
that makes sense. I assumed you had meant that he’d be ready to go (since that’s what benk was referring to). I’m not sure I’d move Escobar to accommodate Hechevarria, though I’d consider it and see how they do in the spring. I’d prefer not to move guys around in-season if it can be avoided.
I haven’t seen Hech play, but reports suggest he could be as good (or better) than Hill, and I’d be surprised if Escobar couldn’t be as good as him, too. Considering that Hill has been one of the better (best?) fielding second basemen in the game the past several years, that’s pretty high praise.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Agreed.. but when the rosters expand, if Hech hasn't come back to earth...
I say see what he can do at the Majors.. perhaps he was being a little impatient because of his surroundings.. (being a little older in AA).. Let him turn DPs with countryman Yunel and perhaps he’ll learn to hit like him too..
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
BUT do they move Hech to 2B so he can get ML at bats this year?
or move Esco to 2B so Hech’s development isn’t messed with?
I don’t like either of these options. I think Adeiny stays put in Las Vegas and continues to develop as a ++ defending SS.
Thoughts?
Thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Aug 16, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
i agree
leave him there
Total Internet Points: 7600
by Bowling_Guy25 on Aug 16, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather not burn an option on him
when his hitting is clearly not MLB ready. His Las Vegas numbers are promising but its a very small sample. The Jays have a decision to make on Hill this offseason so they should give him as many ABs as possible. Even if they let Hill go, the Jays will need another 2B. It would be a mistake giving a job full time to a guy who hasn’t exactly impressed offensively in AA.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
The Jays are already burning options since he has a major league deal
They use an option each year he’s in the minors. They have 4 options, 2 have already been used (this year and last) and his last will be in 2013.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Well that complicates things a lot.
I think they have a major conundrum here.
What will AA do with this?
Let Hill go and move Esco to second over the off season and give SS to an untested rookie? I can’t think Yesco will like that much. Why do I keep thinking about George Bell not wanting to DH years ago?
Thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Aug 16, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Hech can't hit
and neither can Hill. I’d like to see a FA signing, because you can’t win (unless you’re the Brewers) starting such a black hole in your middle infield
WAR... WAR never changes.
He'll hit or he's a $10 million
flash in the pan.
Thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Aug 16, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hill's had so many ABs they tried something new...
and sat him for two days.. Hech may not have ML-ready bat, but we can at least see if the potential is there.. I agree the last couple weeks in AA + 3 g’s in AAA don’t mean a thing, but IF he continues raking, it couldn’t hurt to see him in September.
I love Aaron and I hope we can turn him around but I feel like we’re headed for a decline option/sign for cheaper/turn into new J Mac.. which wouldn’t be horrible… if he lights it up next year off the bench, then he still has the chance to take his job back.. Nobody can say we haven’t given Hill a fair chance to hit this year..
Defensive specialists like Hech can usually adapt quicker to change than merely above avg guys like Yunel..
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Hill is broken,Yunel is not.
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
has Hill done any better since the rest days?
because I haven’t seen anything to suggest that. Hill would be a fine utility infielder, but if Hech is to be an everyday guy he needs to hit a lot more (though he’s young, so it’s not like we should write him off or anything)
WAR... WAR never changes.
oh right
I didn’t realize it was that recently. not that I think a day off turns 2010-2011 Aaron Hill into 2009 Aaron Hill but who knows
WAR... WAR never changes.
I agree about in season moves
But I don’t think a move to 2nd would hurt Hechs dev… His glove doesn’t need work. It’s ready and could best case prove his flexibility in future. I don’t want to mess w Yunel at SS cause it could hurt his bat, though it would be easier to consider moving him in ST if Hech shows potential to hit ML pitching in AAA. We have all heard how PCL pitching doesn’t give an accurate picture, so hence my willingness to rush him in September to get an idea of where we actually stand going forward.
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 1:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
*in September
Sorry posting on my phone
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 1:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
change in position affecting hitting is really overblown
its really rarer than you think.
I demand to be heard.
It might be rare if the player
knows how to play the position already, but if you’re talking about a guy trying to learn a position on the fly, I think it’s a different story. Particularly when the guy is not an established major league hitter, anyway.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Would you like to see him with Jays in Sept?
If he continues hitting at a .300+ clip into the first week of September, would you try shifting Yunel on the fly to accomodate some starts for Hech at SS? I love Hill, but feel we need to get a feel for how we stand going forward.
September pitching is watered down anyways, so what’s the difference btw him at AAA and ML?
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
no one remembers what he was hitting
but I remember what he wasn’t hitting (or walking), which was everything
WAR... WAR never changes.
So for argument's sake...
He continues hitting .500+ for 2 weeks… You would discount showcasing him after the rosters expand because he couldn’t hit AA pitching in the beginning of the year…
Let’s not forget that we screwed him by putting him in A ball without any Spanish instructors in 2010. Not saying this is what has happened.. but if he continued to hit.. How can you not justify a showcase? If he falls down to earth before the two weeks are up, and is hitting sub-.270, then fine, let him play everyday at AAA… My argument was that if he continues to hit PCL pitchers at .300+ for the next weeks, then he deserves playing time in the ML during showcase time..
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
And he has been doing both
hitting and walking over the last couple weeks.
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
then I'd look at his BABIP
and his peripheral stats, and see if he’s just getting lucky or if he’s somehow become Ty Cobb. what’s his BABIP at AAA right now? .600? that’s not turning a corner, at least not a sustainable one
WAR... WAR never changes.
Well if you've been following my updates of his AB's.
Hes been showing some very nice plate discipline, and has been getting a lot of hard contact line drives.
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
what are the showcases for?
why do the jays need to see him up here? They know how good Hech is right now. if they bring him up, I can only guess that its to showcase him for a trade.
I demand to be heard.
He hasn't seen ML-pitching..
SSS on the BABIP in AAA.I don’t know how to look at it over the last two months but he’s hitting .281 in NH over the last two months. Getting on base via the walk more too.
Even if it raised interest in him in the off season if he had a short lucky run in September, would it be so bad if it helped us pick up an elite bat? Worst case he does poorly and gets another chance in AAA next year, best case we learn more about the future look of our middle infield and/or increase the chance that we pick up someone that could put us in contention. Wouldn’t you take Hanley for Adeiny and one or two of our few many quality pitching prospects? … and vice versa if he showed potential with his bat for the rest of the year.
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, small sample
meaning he can’t possible be even close to as good as he’s been so far in AAA, so I’m nearly positive your point (of him succeeding this much until the end of August) is moot
WAR... WAR never changes.
Didn't Escobar play a bit of 2B and 3B for the Braves?
I don’t think a move for him would be that big of a deal. If Bautista can move from RF to 3B and back, Escobar can change positions too. That said, it’s a little early for Hech, wait til his hitting is better.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
right, i do think Escobar will have to move over sooner or later
hech is (supposedly) a prodigous defender at SS, yunel’s getting older.
I demand to be heard.
That's why I qualified earlier...
If he continues to rake for the next two weeks.. It’s not like we’re playing meaningful baseball.. September is a time to showcase.. I think Yunel’s fine where he is and in all likelihood will play there for all of 2012.. but if we take a look in September, someone has to shift… I thought Hech would be at least serviceable as 2B and wouldn’t hurt his development of his glove which is considered ready.. It would however, let us see if his bat has any potential against big league pitching..
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I get this argument
but Yunel’s what, 28? it’s not like his legs are falling apart or anything
WAR... WAR never changes.
Is that the way it works?
Serious question. I didn’t know that.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
Or did they only burn 1 option in 2010?
Since they would have had to option him at the beginning of last season. Since they have not moved him back onto the 40 man roster since then, they have not had to option him again. Wouldn’t it work that way? If so, they haven’t used an option in 2011.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
I assume you are asking about Hech
He is on the 40-man roster. Any time you are on the 40-man roster and not on the active, 25-man roster, you are serving an optional assignment in the minors. Thus, the Jays are using up one of Hech’s option years in 2011.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks. Yeah I was talking about Hech.
I seriously didn’t know how it worked. I had a different understanding of it. So they might as well bring him up in September. Even if he’s sitting on the bench, there’s no negative consequence.
To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong
No negative consequence?
The team will have to pay for his hotel rooms, meals, plane tickets, and per diem!
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
And he will be paid the prorated MLB minimum!
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
And all the letters in his last name for the uniform.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 16, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
nice!
though, i don’t think he’ll make any more money if he’s in the majors than he is now, will he?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
correct
since he’s on a ML deal.
Well, outside of the aforementioned team-covered expenses
"Upon further evaluation, though, the Blue Jays reversed course. Doctors suggested that the inconsistent workload in the bullpen would increase the chances of McGowan suffering another injury. "
Went to bed winning, woke up and we lost.
Time to use Rauch as an enforcer. I’m not a hockey guy but we should use him when we want to plunk a batter or if we intend on a bench clearing brawl.
Don’t let him pitch in the 9th please.
the idea of Rauch as an enforcer to plunk guys is kind of funny
all bark and no bite, so to speak
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I'm sure 88mph in the back still hurts..
But I agree.. 100mph in the back from Brandon League would have made us look like we were showing up w a knife to a gun fight..
by JaysFanExiledinOTT on Aug 16, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
MLB Trade Rumours has reported that Trever Miller has been DFA
Also, Jon Rauch has been placed on the DL. They have purchased the contracts of Wil Ledezma and Rommie Lewis.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/blue-jays-designate-trever-miller-for-assignment.html
I didn’t see the meltdown last night, so I don’t know how Rauch looked. Was there any sign of an injury?
The man in the white shirt.
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