Tuesday Bantering: Links
by Tom Dakers on Aug 30, 2011 9:50 AM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Links
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PrintI haven't done a links post in a while, but was wandering through the Jays Blogosphere and saw a lot of good stuff out there. Chime in with any links you think are interesting.
- Gregor Chisholme has notes on Ricky Romero, J.P. Arencibia and quotes from Don Wakamatsu on Jesse Litsch.
- The Rays have released everyone's favorite reliever/author Dirk Hayhurst. Alex, I'd love it if you would pick him up.
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Bluefield clinches Appy East crown | MiLB.com News | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball
The Blue Jays' first season in the Appalachian League could not have gone better. - This is a couple of days old, from the Naional Post: Kelly Johnson talking about hearing about the trade and being rattled by an earthquake at the same time.
- Bob Elliot talks to Todd Stottlemyre about the death of Mike Flanagan. But the interesting tidbit is the note that The Jays say Newmarket lefty Jake Eliopopulos, whom they drafted in the 43rd round in June, did not return any of their calls before the Aug. 15 deadline.
- The Leafs take batting practice. Insert your own joke.
- Fangraphs wonders if the Yankees should move our old friend A.J. Burnett to the bullpen. We are so lucky he opted out of the contract with us.
- Kelly: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level - thestar.com. Cathal Kelly thinks the Jays should spend money, but not on a high priced free agent. I'm not sure what he is getting at and the lead is buried under 500 words about the Yankees upset over the rescheduling of games with the Orioles. Yeah, I don't know why I'm linking to this mess.
- Tao of Stieb looks at the mess that was Kyle Drabek's start from last night.
- Blue Jay Hunter wonders what is wrong with Adam Lind.
- Blue Jay Hunter also has a video of the 1996 Jays lip syncing This Land is Your Land
- Mike Wilner rants about the folks that call his phone in show. I don't know how he does that job.
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Davidi on Snider: Cautiously optimistic - sportsnet.ca
"It's been kind of a long year for me, I've put in a lot of extra work and it sucks to see it come down to something like tendinitis," says Snider. "I didn't think it would be season ending first and foremost. I was hoping it would be something that I just could get through the end of the season, ultimately the decision was made by the organization.
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it really felt like he had no idea what he was talking about.
I usually really like Kelly, but recently it seems like he’s gone downhill a bit.
by leaflover4ever on Aug 30, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
There is a very good reason why he won’t be called up. First he won’t get many AB’s in the Jays outfield. Next he hasn’t played above AA yet. And most importantly NH is in the playoffs so why would they bring up one of their better hitters? If anything you’ll see some prospects like Hech and maybe a couple pitchers move DOWN to AA to help that team.
MY FANPOST IS DONE
by leaflover4ever on Aug 30, 2011 11:12 AM EDT reply actions
Same!
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2011/8/30/2392890/should-jose-bautista-win-the-al-mvp
*Internet bro fist
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
More Minor League Awards
Mike Redmond of Lansing was named Midwest League Manager of the Year (so that’s four in the system!).
Lansing also had two postseason All-Stars: OF Michael Crouse and OF Jake Marisnick.
@BBBMinorLeaguer
MANAGER DEPTH!!1
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
I don't get how Wilner does it. I'd have gone all Storm'n Norman Rumack on most of the callers
The Jays are pretty much were I thought they were. What can you do when you traded your 2nd best starter, your best setup relievers (outside of Casey) and have a bunch of rookies on the roster. Jeebus, it takes time and experience to build a winner. This is a season of lumps.
All this talk about 20 years blah blah blah we deserve a blah blah winner blah blah. The team doesn’t owe anyone jack. I give AA a lot of credit for ignoring most of the call in show fans (unlike Maple Loaf management it seems.)
What a lot of these fans should remember is what Bill Munny told Little Bill in the movie, The Unforgiven:
“Deserve has got nothing to do with it.”
BTW, I really hate summer colds. All I could feel was the pressure of my sinuses last night in between swigs of Nyquil. No energy today.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Aug 30, 2011 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
As much as I respect Wilner's knowledge...
…I can’t stand listening to The Jays Talk any more. Wilner is not as annoying as he used to be, but the callers seem to be getting worse. They must be letting Leafs fans call in.
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Aug 30, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Radio phone in shows are a waste of time
Didn’t Winston Churchhill say that listening to the average person talk for 5 minutes is the best argument against democracy.
I blog, therefore I am.
well think of how dumb the average person is
then remember that half of the people in the world are dumber than that
Total Internet points: 10 000
THE JAYS ARE WHAT WE THOUGHT THEY WERE
by leaflover4ever on Aug 30, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
AND WE LET THEM OFF THE HOOK!
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 30, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
"Leafs learn hitting a homer not as easy as it looks"...
I’m not a Leafs fan, but I’m sure Leafs Nation lemmings would be ecstatic if they could merely hit the net!
Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic
by bluejaysstatsgeek on Aug 30, 2011 11:52 AM EDT reply actions
I’m a big Leafs fan and I don’t get the irrational hatred of the Leafs by Jays fans… Why do most baseball fans seem to hate hockey and the Leafs?
bad, big market team = easy to hate on/make fun of
same reason NYC sports fans make fun of the Knicks (and Mets)
Total Internet points: 10 000
I'm indifferent to the Leafs although I enjoy the intensity of a HNIC game during the middle of the season.
I was a fan until Sundin left.
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
I’m a member of both BBB and PPP (Pension Plan Puppets the SBN Leafs site… as a side Toronto bloggers are good with alliteration), and I enjoy both blogs. However I’ve found ost Leafers are just “Blaaah baseballs boring” while a lot of Jays are “deerp hockey sucks Laffs 1967” type of writers. This place isn’t nearly as bad as like DJF etc for the hate and ridicule of the Leafs but you still get the calling Leaf fans lemmings and such now and again.
Bottom line is I don’t get the hate for other sports teams in your city. Assuming their is only one in the city of course (see Yankees vs Mets and WS and cubs).
I enjoy hockey (especially the World Juniors Championship last two years notwithstanding)
My issues with the Leafs is that they’re generally a stupid organization with a few years of decent years. They don’t draft well, don’t really develop well and keep talking about 1967 as it was the greatest year ever and it’s frustrating to be a fan only to have your hopes/fantasies crushed by the harsh reality of another miserable winter.
If it were up to me… I would blow up that entire organization from top to bottom. Start over and basically turn it into something similar to what AA did with the Jays. Good coaches in the minors. Hire a huge scouting dept. etc. Focus on developing players and tell the Toronto News Media and fans to shut up. Can’t just pick up FAs anymore as a stopgap like they did in the 90s and early 00s. It frustrated me to no end when I would see the Leafs charge at the bitter end. I would be going “Go for the higher draft picks you morons!”
I used to listen to Loaf’s talk but the stupidity and delusion of many of the callers just killed me.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Aug 30, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
If it were up to me… I would blow up that entire organization from top to bottom. Start over and basically turn it into something similar to what AA did with the Jays.
Brian Burke did blow up the Leafs from top to bottom as you described. He traded away players like Tomas Kaberle, Matt Stajan, Jason Blake, Vesa Toskala, Alexei Ponikarovsky, etc., for future pieces and picks since his arrival. The main difference is that AA had Roy Halladay to start a rebuild with. Not to discredit AA with the excellent job he’s done so far, but Burke had basically nothing to work with after he was hired other than maybe Tomas Kaberle.
Hire a huge scouting dept.
I think Burke has done that.
Focus on developing players and tell the Toronto News Media and fans to shut up.
Which is basically what Burke is doing right now, with holding off prospects like Gardiner, Colborne, and Kadri until he feels they are ready.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Disagree on one point
Brian Burke did blow up the Leafs from top to bottom as you described. He traded away players like Tomas Kaberle, Matt Stajan, Jason Blake, Vesa Toskala, Alexei Ponikarovsky, etc., for future pieces and picks since his arrival.
Not completely true: he also traded number one picks for Phil Kessel. Sorry, but that was huge mistake for a team that was supposed to rebuild (and even diehard fans knew that trade was a mistake). The Leafs will feel the impact of that poor decision for many years. In many ways, that poor decision has influenced the most recent draft, where the Leafs didn’t have a draft pick in the first round, then traded away assets to get two low level picks, traded those picks plus more assets to get one mid round pick. Meanwhile, if he’d not done the trade, he would have had a great 2nd pick player, a top 10 pick, and probably could have traded for and kept those two late first round picks. It’s hard to argue that Kessel has made the team better by being on it.
There’s a reason that Burke gets defensive about the Kessel trade. He blew it badly, and he knows it.
Not completely true: he also traded number one picks for Phil Kessel. Sorry, but that was huge mistake for a team that was supposed to rebuild (and even diehard fans knew that trade was a mistake). The Leafs will feel the impact of that poor decision for many years. In many ways, that poor decision has influenced the most recent draft, where the Leafs didn’t have a draft pick in the first round, then traded away assets to get two low level picks, traded those picks plus more assets to get one mid round pick. Meanwhile, if he’d not done the trade, he would have had a great 2nd pick player, a top 10 pick, and probably could have traded for and kept those two late first round picks. It’s hard to argue that Kessel has made the team better by being on it.
In the trade, the Leafs got a sure thing in Phil Kessel who is one of the youngest active players in the NHL to score 30+ goals in 3 consecutive seasons and is still 23 years old. As much as I think the timing of the trade wasn’t great, Kessel is not a bad return. As well, those three picks are not sure things. Sure, they’ve got the potential to become something good, but I won’t judge the trade until they have played a few seasons in the NHL.
There’s a reason that Burke gets defensive about the Kessel trade. He blew it badly, and he knows it.
Again, we don’t know the extent of the trade until the picks have played enough NHL games. Seguin is the only one who has played an NHL game so far and he didn’t exactly impress in his rookie season, though one season isn’t enough to call him a bust either.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Well, I guess our views differ completely
I see collecting first round picks as being a very important way of getting highly skilled young and cheap players. I would never trade away first round picks if my team is going to miss the playoffs badly. Seguin held is own as a rookie and had a great playoffs. That bodes well for him. I do agree that not every pick works out, but early picks, especially top 3 picks, have greater chance of being good or great players.
I’m just not that convinced that Kessel is a great player. He is highly skilled but he doesn’t strike me as a player you can build your team around, even just on offense. Given that, I just don’t think he was worth giving up two shots at potentially good or great players.
I used to be a Leaf fan (35+ years). In the final year of Ferguson, I stopped watching them because I got sick of the mismanagement and I swore that I would not do so until they had demonstrated competence in assembling a team. Burke almost had me convinced he knew what he was doing and I was ready to watch them again and then he did the Kessel trade. That meant Leafs management had learned nothing, and I continue to not watch them. This approach has saved me much heartache and heartburn in the last 4 years and I highly recommend it.
but is it really fair to use hindsight to judge a trade?
(note: I know comparatively little about hockey, I stopped following after the lockout)
if Colby Rasmus really has crazy attitude and mental problems despite his 4+ WAR season as a 23 year old, does that make the Jackson/Rasmus trades a bad one for the Jays? no it doesn’t, I’d say. no front office has the benefit of hindsight when they get to choose whether or not to execute a trade, so it’s not fair to judge trades from the peanut gallery with hindsight either
Total Internet points: 10 000
Exactly. At the time the Leafs were looking like a borderline playoff team and not a team who would have the 2nd worst record. If the return for Kessel was say Dylan McIlrath (10th overall pick) Christian Thomas (40th) and then JT Miller (15th this year) the trade wouldn’t look nearly as bad. Bottom line is Burke made a trade and it backfired. If Zach Stewart wins ROY next year Rzep becomes an allstar and Rasmus retires because of chronic wrist pain does that make AA dumb for making the trade? no it doesn’t
Really?
At the time the Leafs were looking like a borderline playoff team
Not to me they didn’t. They looked like a horrible team and I wasn’t surprised by how badly they performed.
The difference is
The Jays are rapidly approaching contending for the playoffs. 2012 is supposed to be the first year in which they push for it. Acquiring Colby Rasmus is in line with that. He’s young, very talented, and he plays a position that was a minus for the team. It’s a great fit judging from current knowledge.
The Leafs were still plummeting down the slope of competence (You might argue that they finally bottomed out after they got Kessel). They were a terrible team with a bad farm system. They were just starting to acquire young talent. Kessel is young, but they sacrificed two great picks that they need now to get him. Kessel was just a poor fit judging from the knowledge at the time and it seems he remains that way today.
No, it's not fair
I thought it was a bad trade from the moment it occurred. I had no idea who the players were going to be. However, I did know that the Leafs would suck so they would be high draft picks. I also knew that Kessel would have negligible impact on how the Leafs performed. That’s how I judged the trade at the time.
right, that's fair
I just don’t like evaluating trades using hindsight because I think it’s unfair
Total Internet points: 10 000
I was for the trade even to this day because a goal scorer of Kessel’s quality who was only 21 yr old at the time is ridiculously hard to find and draft picks are far from a sure thing. Kessel is still constantly improving, especially defensively and is one of 5 players (IIRC) who has scored more than 30 goals each of the last 4 seasons.
The trade would have fine or even great for the Leafs had they not completely sucked and gave up a potential franchise center to the Bruins.
Even if they gave up two 5-10 overall picks, it wouldn’t be so bad but losing a potential franchise center, something Leafs badly could use right now hurts big time. If Leafs make the playoffs, it’s easily a great trade because they are giving up crap shoot picks for a good sniper with potential to become an elite one. It was a gamble that didn’t work out.
The only problem I have with that trade is that you do not make that trade in “hope” to get into the playoffs. You do that move to go from a playoff team to the next level.
Bingo
The only problem I have with that trade is that you do not make that trade in "hope" to get into the playoffs. You do that move to go from a playoff team to the next level.
Exactly right. If the trade works, all you do is put your team on the treadmill of mediocrity where you are good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to do anything in them but yet not bad enough to draft potential franchise talent. Right now, this is where I see the Leafs are right now.
Okay
I got the impression from the media and call in shows that the Leaf’s weren’t doing enough… hoisted by my own petard (as I haven’t followed the Leafs closely since 2003.) My stupid.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Aug 30, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Goodbye Jake Eliopopulos
The Jays say Newmarket lefty Jake Eliopopulos, whom they drafted in the 43rd round in June, did not return any of their calls before the Aug. 15 deadline. A year ago, he was selected in the 15th round by the Los Angeles Dodgers and in 2009 the Jays chose him in the second …
Ah sweet justice…Kid snubs his nose at his hometown team and second-round money, and it comes back to bite him in the ass. Having the Jays redraft him probably just added insult to injury – see we took you in the 2nd round and two years later we can have you in the 43rd, you blew it kid.
It seems Jake's agent couldn't cash the checks his ego wanted the Jays to write.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Aug 30, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Former Leaf Jay Harrison
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Stellick: Was that the first win of the Don Wakamasu Era or the first win of the Third Coming of Dewayne Wise Era?
Milner: It was the first win of the J.P. Arencibia Has A Stolen Base in the Majors Era
@BBBMinorLeaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Aug 30, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here’s what one of the al mvp voters had to say about the mvp race.
what is 48÷2(9+3) ---> 2 or 288?
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