I think you and I are destined to do this forever --- Rivalries and grudges never seem to go away
by JohnnyG on Sep 24, 2011 1:34 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Opinions
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PrintWe all have them, the players and teams that we just can't stand. No matter what they do on or off the field it doesn't matter. Mostly everyone here has the standard ones with the Yankees and Red Sox which for the most of the past decade has dealt with the fact that we seem to be playing on an uneven playing ground when it comes to competing with the top payrolls. That being said I know there are other teams that I can't stand and even go as far to actively root for them to lose.
Putting aside the Red Sox and Yankees because there are enough obvious reasons to hate those teams even aside from the payroll issue (Papelbon, A-Rod, Posada, Youk etc etc), I want to focus more on some of the other teams that I like to watch lose and explore the potential reasons why that exists, some of them are rational, and others... not so much.
Atlanta Braves - I can't help it, it's been 19 years and I still can't stand the Braves. I was just a kid when the Jays played the Braves for the world series and I can still vividly remember that stupid chop and chant, the flag hanging upside down (Yes I know that wasn't the Braves but still) and the obnoxious fans saying that a Canadian team shouldn't ever win. Fast forward a few years and we get the delight of Chipper Jones rants about Toronto and seemingly poor attitude towards certain players. I just can't get past my hate for this team, and frankly I don't think I ever will.
Oakland Athletics & Minnesota Twins - Now on principle neither one of these teams have ever really done anything that made me hate them. In fact the teams have employed players that I love to watch in the past and still do. How can you hate on Canadian MVP Justin Morneau or MVP Joe Mauer. Even though there is a lack of ultimate success for the A's you have to admire the innovative direction and going against the flows approach that was outlined in Moneyball. So why do I hate them? On the surface it doesn't seem like there should be anything there, but really it is how these teams are portrayed in the media that gets to me. Honestly, I know I can't be alone in thinking if I hear the Jays broadcast team talk about how the A's or the Twins play the game the right way anymore in the run of the year I could just go crazy. It always seems like sweet justice whenever they lose do an error or some mis-play.
Tampa Bay Rays - Lastly the Rays...This is a fairly recent development. Up until the Rays broke out and even during their break out season I was happy for them. In the years before it always seemed like the O's and the Rays were at the bottom with us, fighting against the Yankees and Red Sox and I was cheering for them during the world series run, everyone likes an underdog right? It wasn't until afterwards that I soured on the team. We were overwhelmed with a sudden rash of Rays fans who just appeared out of nowhere. Every radio/tv host started to talk about how the Rays were now the example to follow despite all of the evidence to the contrary. To make matters worse the few fans I had to deal with personally seemed to develop a smug sense of arrogance about how their team was going to contend for years constantly bragging about their superior front office designs. Don't get me wrong, the Rays are to be praised for putting together a contending team on such a smaller payroll, but lets not delude ourselves on what helped get to them to that point. Years of high draft picks help build the base for the trades and other players they have as well as some career years from bullpen arms. 10 straight years of last place finishes (1 year was a 4th place finish...), that's the price for success?
What are some teams that you can't stand and what are some the reasons? Maybe you can never beat them in MLB The show? or your little league team was beat by another team sporting the same name? Sound off in the comments!
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lol that pic is definitely "nuff said" worthy
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by noname3 on Sep 24, 2011 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Other than Yankees and Red Sox
Mets, Marlins, Cubs, Orioles
Mets mostly because they’re like every other New York team
Marlins just because
With the Cubs I just get this feeling of smugness over their history while at the same time the whole “we haven’t won in a hundred years” thing
Orioles, not really hate just really annoyed that they get picked every year to do better than us
Dennis Eckersly occupies a dark place in my psyche
…he of the Oakland A’s then and who Alomar eviscerated with that homerun (who can forget that one when all seemed lost)…and now on the broadcast team of the Sox.
First and foremost, the Red Sox, with the Yankees close behind.
After that, I’m with you on the braves and rays (if i have to hear buck and pat say how they never give up and are always dangerous, i may have to start taking crazy pills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DVAsmrwdtQ). Marlins because I loathe Loria.
Oh, and not to be forgotten, the White Sox for starting this whole man in white thing (oh, and for giving us Hawk Harrelson).
I hate the White Sox and Braves, just because the City of Toronto gets bashed a lot when we play them. I miss the Detroit and Cleveland rivalries, even the little Montreal thing we had for a bit.
I hope we destroy the White Sox this weekend; although I will have to listen to three days of how crappy of a City Toronto is just watching the series.
Because he's a bafoon
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
I think it would be funnier if the second line read "Y U NO PITCH GOOD?!?!"
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
[Funny phrase about how few followers I have on Twitter]
I don't exactly know why him being bad merits hate
I laugh at him because he does dumb things, but I don’t hate him
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
It's tough to hate any athletes cause we don't know them.
A-rod is the only MLB player I hate
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
why do people hate arod?
Jeter strikes me as way bigger of a douche than Arod
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
like
waaaaaaaaaay bigger
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Are you kidding me
Steroids
Kissing himself in the mirror
Yelling for the pop up against Toronto
His constant chew filled cheeks
Madonna
And overall just being a hugee douche
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
by jays182 on Sep 24, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Being an idiot and being a douche = completely different
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
by Pikachu on Sep 24, 2011 5:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's both so it really doesn't matter.
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
don't mean to hijack
but you never really answered my question, other than saying, basically, he’s not good at baseball (using a meme I quite like, I might add) which would mean you despise John McDonald
Ya I did
Like 3 comments later
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
I listed the reasons I don't like him
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
i rec'd it =D
Total Internet Points: 999
by Bowling_Guy25 on Sep 24, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Burnett I don't have as many reasons to not like
You can tell he’s a loser though
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
I think the centaur picture would have been the best argument
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
I forget if that was a different situation than the mirror kiss?
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
Allegedly, A-Rod has the centaur painting in his bedroom
I’m not sure if it has been confirmed.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
I just hate Burnett’s attitude. He comes across as a douche (I hope I’m allowed to say that in your living room, Tom).
by outoforder87 on Sep 24, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
As afar as I know, douche is aloud.
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
[Funny phrase about how few followers I have on Twitter]
My guess would be
because he ditched us for the Yankees
by leaflover4ever on Sep 24, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
but by doing so he actually helped us
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
only if he pitched as bad as he did
but thats why i didn’t like him, he chose to leave us, didn’t want to play here anymore
Im over it though
Total Internet Points: 999
by Bowling_Guy25 on Sep 24, 2011 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I find AJ annoying, but I'd like to send him a thank you card
For opting out and saving the Jays 24 million that was better spent on the Jays farm system etc.
Sure he helped the Yanks with the 2009 WS, but 2010 and 2011 awfulness + headcase issue makes me glad that he’s not with the Jays.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Sep 24, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I always hate playing the Rays..
It is never really the long ball that they beat us by, it is always the tiny mistakes they make us make on bunts, stolen bases, etc.
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
[Funny phrase about how few followers I have on Twitter]
I also hate playing against the Twins..
Constantly hearing “They play the game the right way” gets annoying real quick.
Not changing my signature until Hechavarria is promoted to the big leagues.
[Funny phrase about how few followers I have on Twitter]
I hate playing the Yankees. That is all
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
Red Sox vs Yankees
Its like 2 games played consecutively
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
tomorrow it actually will be two games played consecutively.
by leaflover4ever on Sep 24, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
double header?
that’s like 4 games played consecutively!
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I don't hate the Rays
I don’t know, I could never hate the Rays, even if they are in that “top tier” now. I always thought, and still do, that Boston/New York are despised, and Baltimore/Tampa and Us got the short end of the stick when it came to divsion realignment. So, I feel like there is a bond there, somewhat and what I wish for is the days when the Jays finish first, the Rays win the wildcard, lets give the poor O’s 3rd place and the Red Sox and Yanks just battle for basement dweller for a decade. That’s what I want to see. At the beginning of the season, when Baltimore had a good start, I was happy kind of happy for them. I would’ve loved to see the Jays and O’s finish 1-2. I feel like this bond – i guess due to lack of attention, similar circumstances/problems, and the hatrid of the evil empire and the stupid sox – makes me want to support my brethren.
Plus, I think John Maddon is the best manager in baseball, can’t hate him. Also, I like David Price.
Teams I hate: Yanks, BoSox, WHITE SOX (I hate Rios. I hate their accusations about the man in the white shirt).. That’s about it.
Oh. & Oakland. Just because their team name is "Athletics". Seriously?
by outoforder87 on Sep 24, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It's because the team dates back to the early 1900s
I think Athletics is a short form of Athletic Club, which was a common enough reference at the time. It made more sense in 1911 than in 2011. The name hasn’t aged well, I’ll give you that.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
The Yanks, I "hate"
I didn’t always loathe the Yanks. The 1996 team was pretty likeable but around 1998 when they started winning crazy.
What annoys me even most is how it seems almost every questionable call goes their way. If you look at the most controversial playoff calls you will see the Yanks benefit from it and sometimes Mariano’s strike zone—his stuff is filthy enough, he doesn’t need any help from the umps!
As for the BoSox, I really dislike Youk although it has been tempered by JBau’s debating every strike call so I can’t just go “nyah nyah Youk.” and Papelbon.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Sep 24, 2011 3:57 PM EDT reply actions
Kinda dislike the indians....
Just cuz they lost the 2007 ALCS to the Red Sox….That was supposed to be the Rockies year…but I guess that just stems back to hating the Soxs
Always hate the Braves…not sure what it is…I just have this thing against Atlanta Sports teams…
Phillies are the NL Yankees, but they have doc so i cant hate them as much as the real thing
Hawk Harrelson makes me never want to watch anything white sox….
Also wanna say the mets, but I have too much of a fond memory watching the 2006 NLCS…possibly one of my favourite playoff series of all time :)
Dislike the Yanks, Red Sox, Braves, Cardinals, Angels
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
boston the most craptastic city on the planet period bar none
They booed the pope when he said new york for chrit sake its just a douche city
by Seal Clubbing on Sep 24, 2011 4:44 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
Well, I don’t hate any teams (although, being an ex-Expos fan, I don’t care much for the Marlins). In particular, I don’t dislike the Yankees and the Red Sox. Yes, they spend an enormous amount of money on payroll. However, they have worked hard for years to improve their farm system, especially the Red Sox. Although they have a number of players on their roster who were free agents, a large number either came through their farm systems or were acquired in trades, which cost prospects. In contrast, the Blue Jays neglected their farm system for years under Ricciardi (whom I consider one of the worst GM’s ever). IMO, the fact that the Jays have not won for many years is due mainly to bad management on the Jays part, not to the large payrolls of the Yankees and Red Sox. If it comes to a point that the Jays cannot win despite building correctly (like AA is doing), due to the large amounts of money spent by the Yankees and Red Sox, then I might develop a dislike for these teams.
The logic escapes me...why wait?
an uneven playing field caused by large revenue streams thru a large geograpable hic/historic fanbase and tv contracts shall never go away. Even if we do terrific with our farm system chances are we will always be disadvantaged because they can cherrypick the best off our team when the best of the team becomes available. Until there is a fixed salary system/revenue sharing we shall have to makedo with superior management and a great deal of luck including timing of the maturity of our draft picks. And oh yes, they even have a leg up on t he big money acquisitions of international prospects who dont go through a draft. You better start a hating cause they dont want the system to change.
Is trading for and resiging a player that another team can't afford to resign
necessarily all that different from signing that player outright?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I guess you’re referring to ARod. And no, there isn’t much difference. Still, why haven’t the Blue Jays developed any position players of the caliber of Cano, Pedroia or Ellsbury, for example? Among pitchers, there is Halladay and maybe Romero. Who else? Go back ~10 years. I don’t deny that the Yankees in particular have spent a ton of money, and not always on players who deserved it. But what exactly have the Blue Jays done to even come close to contending status?
by DavidLondon on Sep 24, 2011 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't referring to anyone in particular, though Adrian Gonzalez comes to mind first
A-Rod was so long ago that he hadn’t even occurred to me (also, he wasn’t an issue of resigning, he was an issue of the team taking on a bad contract).
Position players the Jays developed in the past 10 years? Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, Aaron Hill, and Adam Lind have all had all-star seasons or received MVP votes and none of them had 100 at-bats prior to 2001. Sure, it seems like all those players have kind of fallen off a cliff, but to suggest that the Jays have not developed very good players is way off the mark.
Also, the Jays have developed a lot more good pitchers than just Halladay. I don’t think the Yankees or Red Sox have developed any pitchers anywhere near as good as EITHER Romero or Shaun Marcum. It’s a lot harder to develop exceptional position players when you use high draft picks on pitchers.
My whole point isn’t that the Jays have been so much better-run than the Red Sox or Yankees, it’s that they’ve been run about as well.. I’m not saying that the Jays win the division every season, if you take away the ridiculous payrolls of the Yankees or Red Sox, but they almost certainly would have won the division and/or wildcard at least once or twice in the past ten years. We’ve been up (and down) this tree before, the Yankees have spent something like $100 M more and the Red Sox have spent something like $60 M more per season. To think that the Jays wouldn’t have competed with them if they had similar payroll constraints is beyond silly.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Well, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree regarding the extent to which the Yankees’ and Red Sox’ larger payrolls has impacted the Blue Jays’ success. Some final thoughts. First, I had overlooked Marcum. Second, when the Jays did try to go the free-agent route, they obtained Ryan, Thomas, Burnett, who were all (to differing extents) poor acquisitions, at least for the money. The other teams’ payrolls had nothing to do with these moves (although they do call into question Ricciardi’s “abilities”). Third, I did think of Wells, Rios, Hill, and Lind. But I would put them into the category of promising players who were given bad deals (clearly true in the case of Wells and Rios). Again, the other payrolls did not cause this. Now you will make the argument that, because the other teams could support large payrolls, they could afford to make mistakes such as Wells and Rios. This is absolutely true. Still, if the Jays were run about as well as the Yankees and Red Sox, I do wonder why the Jays made no good long-term signings under Ricciardi.
at the time
the Rios contract was excellent. he was a five-win player in 2007 and a 3.6 win player in 2006, and the first season after he signed the contract he had his best season to date (5.6 WAR). that for some unknown reason his production fell off a cliff does not reflect poorly on Ricciardi, unless you feel that he somehow should have known that an up-and-coming (super)star right fielder was going to implode out of nowhere
You’re right — the signing of Rios was not unreasonable. However, I think you have to be careful with the stats. According to Fangraphs, Rios’ WAR in 2006, 2007, 2008 was, as you say, 3.6, 5.0, 5.6. However, his wRC+ was 118, 124, 113, not hugely different from year to year. Thus, the large variation in his WAR was due mainly to his defense. IMO, there is good reason to be skeptical about UZR. (And it’s not just me — Getting Blanked also had a piece saying it had reservations.)
To make things concrete — look at Baseball Reference. There, they split up the defense and offense contributions to WAR. They give: oWAR: 2.5, 4.1, 2.6; dWAR: 0.9, 0.4, -0.4. Note in particular the dWAR of 2008. It’s negative, to be compared with the large positive dWAR of Fangraphs!
Personally, I find the defense metrics to be totally unconvincing. In the future, I will not refer to WAR, concentrating instead only on wRC+.
but DRS loved him too
+19, +16, +14 runs over a three year period surrounding his contract. besides, if you’re skeptical about UZR, you can use the Aggregate Defensive Rating stat on FanGraphs which is a weighted combination of UZR, DRS, TZL and the Fans’ Scouting Report
DRS: 19, 16, 24
UZR: 10, 8, 22
TZL: 5, 4, -1
The variation is enormous — it tells you something about the unreliability of defensive stats. But it’s not just a question of what I prefer — WAR is computed with defense built in, so it too is not a particularly accurate gauge of how a player did. As I said, I think it’s best to stick with pure hitting stats, say wRC+.
by DavidLondon on Sep 26, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
but then you miss a potentially huge measure of a player's value
there’s no way you can accurately compare, say, Franklin Gutierrez and Adam Dunn merely using wRC+
Yes, we'll agree to disagree
You’ve brought up three “big” free agent signings that failed.
The first, B.J. Ryan, was basically an indefensible mistake. Though he did have one exceptional season and one pretty good season even after his injury, long-term deals for relievers are pretty much always bad ideas and Ryan’s injury (and terrible pitching from 2009 onwards) ensured his was no different.
The second, Frank Thomas, was a two-year 18 M dollar contract. Are you really that surprised that Mark Teixeira, whose deal was worth $200 M, has performed better than Thomas, whose first season really wasn’t even that bad?
The third, Burnett, was not a bad signing at all. He was worth 11.1 fWAR (7.6 rWAR) over 3 seasons for $25M. That isn’t bad value from a free agent signing.
By the way, maybe it’s just me but using A.J. Burnett as an example of how the Yankees are better-run than the Jays is kind of a non-starter, isn’t it?
For every Burnett the Jays have signed, the Yankees have signed a much worse Burnett, Lackey, Matsuzaka, Igawa, Pavano, etc. Maybe you have $60M in toonies in your couch cushions, so you don’t think it’s a big difference in payroll, but I think most people would agree to disagree.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Aside from the Yankees and Cardinals?
Cardinals – I like Pujols, but I just can’t stand Tony La Russa. Even prior to the whole Rasmus debacle, he always came across to me as a whiny baby. I find that irritating.
Rays – You probably described it best. No need reiterating it.
Marlins – This has less to do with the players, and even the lack of fan support, and more to do with their owner. Loria always puts a bad taste in my mouth for the kind of rotten stuff he’s done in the past, whether it was with the Expos or Marlins.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
*Aside from the Yankees and Red Sox
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
LA Angels
just because they changed their name from anaheim angels to the los angeles angels of anaheim…and because the tv crew says that they play the right way, with small ball and all that every time…small ball and defense..small ball and defense…just never goes away does it
Detroit Tigers
Life long Jays fan, being Canadian and all, but living in Windsor (right across the river from Detroit). Alot of Tiger fans live in Windsor and while the rivalry was fun back in the day. I can’t stand going to Tiger games and hearing how much better of a team they are than the Jays. I mean, if we played in such a weak division we could win too. Well they have a few great players in Verlander and Miggy, their fans think Inge/Ordonez/Guillen/etc are the best ever and can’t let them go…
But the straw that broke the camels back was when Doc was being shopped, the local Tiger Radio network discussed trading Rick Porcello straight up for Doc. I called in to state how absolutly crazy that was and was told that I was the insane one and the Jays would have to put a PTBNL in the deal to make it even… From tnat moment on, no Respect for Tiger Fans or the Team…
Porcello for Doc
Take that in a heartbeat
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
I’m going to copy/paste this from another post I made because I really dislike the false narrative of the Rays being built off a decade of sucking.
The fact that you think Tampa’s pitching depth is due to "A decade of Tampa sucking" shows how little you know about the Rays success.
Niemann is a fifth starter at best. I mean he was the 4th overall guy, but if he wasn’t there, somebody else would be taking his place. At 28 this is his first good season, and he’s thrown a grand total of 135 innings (edit: before the jays game, anyways).
The Rays are succeeding because of Price – who as you said, was a first rounder. And because of James Shield the 1st…I’m sorry, 16th rounder. And Hellickson, another 1st…nope, 4th rounder. I don’t want to say they’re succeeding because of Davis, but he’s a third rounder.
As far as offense, I’ll grant you Longoria. Upton while a top pick, isn’t exactly having a great year. No, they’re winning because of Zobrist (acquired for Huff, a fifth rounder) and Joyce (acquired by Jackson, who was acquired for Lance Carter & Baez). They got lucky on Kotchman, sure. But another key guy for them is a 10th rounder, Desmond Jennings.
See where I’m going with this? Outside of Price and Longoria, none of their key guys were first rounders. Most of them were taken in rounds 3-10. All guys the Sox or Yankees could have picked, but passed over for various reasons.
And now they’ve added the best pitching prospect in baseball, a guy drafted in the 8th round.
It’s very easy to suggest the Rays are built off the success of sucking for 10 years. But go look at who they drafted in the first round for the majority of that time. Paul Wilder, Jason stranridge (5.80 ERA), Josh Hamilton (who I believe they lost for nothing), Rocco Baldelli (ditto Hamilton), Dewon Brazelton (6.38 career ERA), Upton, Young, Niemann, Wade Townsend, Longoria, Price.
Of that list, two players turned into stars (3 if you include Hamilton who brought nothing to the Rays), 4 are currently with the team, and the rest of them had no impact on the current team save for Delmon Young. So maybe you want to double check that whole "they sucked for a long time and had good prospects line" until you see what they did with all those high draft picks. Pretty much nothing, until Friedman came along. And they’re STILL the #1 farm team despite the fact they’ve made the playoffs twice in the last 3 years.
The Rays are a great team because of smart management and stellar drafting in the lower rounds. Not because they sucked for a long period of time.
it's cute that you think
Upton, Price, Niemann and Longoria had nothing to do with having a top-2 first round pick. we get it, Andrew Friedman is a good GM, but give any fan from an SBN site ten consecutive top-2 picks and I guarantee you he’d win 90 games eventually
The Pirates, Royals, and Orioles would beg to differ
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
If you had read my post you would have seen the part where I said Longoria and Price were first rounders that had a big impact. In fact I said it twice.
I don’t think Upton is a star player. He’s been a 2/4/3 win player the past 2 years and this one. Solid player, but not a cornerstone player. That would be Longoria. As for Niemann, it should be pointed out that A) He’s never thrown 200 innings. B) He’s never eclipsed 3 WAR C) He’s thrown 135 innings this year and D) He’s really not that good.
Niemann is a back end starter. If you think he’s leading that team, then by all means, but I sure as hell wouldn’t make the argument that the Rays success is based on him.
I would argue Hellickson has made a much bigger impact, and he was a 4th rounder. Not a product of their losing a ton of games, as every team had 3 shots to draft him.
Like someone else said, high draft picks don’t guarantee winning. Look at the O’s, Pirates and Royals.
I’m not saying Price/Longoria isn’t a good core, but a lot of their key guys (Shields, Hellickson, Joyce, now Moore) were either drafted in the later rounds or acquired by guys who were not prominent draft picks.
alright, fair enough
but it’s obvious that their success has come from a combination of high draft picks (remember it’s not just the benefit of a number one overall, but also the first pick in every successive round) and excellent player management. JaysfanDL’s point is a good one, but this certainly isn’t a case of purely great GMing nor purely “being crappy”
"save for Delmon Young"
I like how you don’t actually mention the fact that they turned him into two players who had a very large part in the Rays success the past few years.
It’s also interesting how you use the fact that the Rays used top picks on Wade Davis and Jeff Niemann as examples about how great the Rays are at drafting.
Yes, the Rays have done a good job, but the draft is also partially a crapshoot. If the Rays knew some of the guys they got in later rounds would be exceptional, they’d have drafted them in earlier rounds before other teams got a shot at them.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Are we talking about 2011? Because if so this year Delmon Young = Sam Fuld and a utility Infielder. Archer wasn’t very impressive in AA either. Hak-Ju Lee being the most impressive of the group.
Yes, Delmon got them Garza. And while that is one point in favour of high drafting, it’s also a point in favour of good evaluation. Garza became a far more worthwhile player than Delmon despite the draft spot. And the Rays were the first to recognize this.
For what it’s worth, I don’t consider Garza to have a “very large part” in their success. He was between 1.8-3.2 WAR the past 3 years, and like BJ Upton that’s a solid player but not a key component to a team. He benefited a lot from playing in a pitchers park, and having a terrific defense behind him. For a flyball pitcher to have guys like CC and Upton behind him, it makes his ERA look more impressive than what we would have expected.
I wouldn’t consider Wade Davis, a third rounder, a “top pick”. A top pick is a first rounder, or based on your criticisms of the Rays success a top 5-10 pick. I actually don’t use Niemann as an example of good drafting as I’ve said several times he’s a back end pitcher. So I don’t know where you read that part. I said that Shields, Moore, Hellickson and Jennings were good examples of drafting, as all were taken between the 4th and 16th rounds. And I’m only including players here who made the majors.
Yes, the draft is a crapshoot, but the Rays have pretty consistently shown that they’re aggressive in the draft under Friedman. I don’t have the scouting reports from when they were drafted, but I’d be willing to bet half were paid more than slot which is why they were drafted in the lower rounds. IE, teams recognized their talents, but didn’t want to pay them above slot. Not only do they routinely have a lot of picks, but they always go for high ceiling players.
There’s a reason that 3 years removed from their WS appearance they’re still the top farm. At some point we have to recognize that TB has an exceptional player development system – not just for developing the players, but with bringing them up to succeed at a high level. And a good eye for talent in both the draft and via trades.
Yes, we all know that the Rays are very good at recognizing and developing high-ceiling talent
If you don’t think that an incredibly large part of the reason the Rays were able to acquire Garza was due in large part to Delmon Young’s draft status, you’re just wrong. That doesn’t take anything away from the fact that they recognized his value had dropped and moved him before anyone else realized it. But it also doesn’t mean that they didn’t benefit immensely from the value of the draft pick they used to acquire him.
If you think 3+ Win pitchers like Garza grow on your trees, you’re wrong. If the Rays wanted to sign a pitcher like Garza on the open market, he would have costed them $10M + per season. Ditto for BJ Upton. To say those guys haven’t been a big part of their success is misrepresenting the facts.
The bottom line is, yes, the Rays have done a great job of making an excellent team out of peanuts and other teams’ spare parts. But a large (if not equally large) part of the reason they’ve been able to do that is that they were exceptionally bad for so long.
As long as Niemann was concerned, the point I was making is that your whole point is how great the Rays are at finding and developing talent. Well, they used a fourth overall pick on what you describe as a back-end starter.
Obviously, no one hits on everything, and that’s my point. The Rays hit a bunch of times in a row — more times than many teams would have — but that doesn’t mean that it’s only because they were smarter, it means they were likely smart but also very, very lucky. Part of that luck was having top picks, part of it was having the financial flexibility to draft and sign players over slot, and part of it was that the players they drafted reached their potentials.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I'm with Johnny
I can’t stand the Rays, Twins, Athletics or Braves for the reasons he mentioned. I actually dislike the Braves so much, I cheered for the Yankees to beat them in ‘96 and ’99. Any team that makes you cheer for the Yankees is vile. I also hate the Orioles, mostly because of the whole Mussina/Cito thing. Orioles fans think it’s cool to make a “Cito Sucks” shirt, haha, how clever. I hope their team stays awful forever.
And last but not least, I hate the Royals. All because of 1985, it’s petty, I know, but they scarred me in my childhood.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
Hearing the tomahawk noise prompt and all the fans doing it at Braves games drives me nuts.
A day that will live in infamy: August 4th, 2011
7 pissed off members of the Aaron Hill fanclub
Red Sox and Yankees, of course, but then there are...
(1) Mariners. I live in the Pacific Northwest, and their TV / radio announcers are horrible homers. They also (as far as I can tell) named “A-Rod”, “Junior”, “Ichiro” (as in first name only), and “The Big Unit”, all of which are irritating nicknames to me. My hate for them has dissipated somewhat as their lineup has become more Oriole-like.
(2) Braves. Yeah, for me it is all the Tomahawk chant garbage, the “America’s Team”, and Chipper Jones as it is for most people.
(3) Dodgers. Their inept play has mitigated this somewhat, but once they get good again (and they will), my hatred for them will intensify again.
(4) Rays. That irritating way they have of beating us all the time. They’ve had their fun, and it is time for them to go down. I loathe Longoria. Also, though I hate the big salaries of today and what it has done to ticket prices, how can a team do so well for so long and still draw 18,000 for weekend games during a pennant race? If the Jays were in a pennant race, there’d be 30,000 butts in the seats for every September game. Even the people in Tampa don’t seem to like the Rays.
(5) Rangers. Hey, they’re from Texas and they are winning. A bad combination for me.
(6) Phillies. Because they are becoming the Yankees of the National League in their front office approach. I’d hate them more if not for Roy Halladay.
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