I wonder, Should I Get Up and Fix Myself a Drink?: Blue Jays Drop Another One to Yankees, 6-4
by jessef on Sep 3, 2011 4:54 PM EDT
in Toronto Blue Jays Game Recaps
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Well, another frustrating game on Saturday afternoon.
Ricky Romero wasn't great but did manage to pitch through trouble, spreading out eight hits and three walks enough to give up just three runs over 6 2/3 innings (though he left two runners on base). He was lifted after walking righty Alex Rodriguez. Casey Janssen came in to face lefty Robinson Cano (that's how you leverage those platoon splits! . . not that hindsight isn't 20/20, of course). Janssen gave up a double to Cano to put us behind (for good) by one. He got a grounder that ate up Mike McCoy (who was in to replace Yunel Escobar, who was lifted with a jammed wrist), allowing Cano to score. Janssen escaped with a long flyball to centre. Camp pitched the 8th inning, which was notable for a very nice double-play started on a diving stab by Brett Lawrie.
The Jays had trouble bunching hits, scoring just four runs, in spite of eight hits, including two homeruns (both solo shots by Adam Lind and DeWayne Wise. Wise also added a groundball triple down the right field line. Aside from J.P. Arencibia, Yunel and Eric Thames (who was also pulled from the game early), the rest of the starters each got one hit. Lawrie's double put the tying run at the plate in the top of the ninth, but that was as close as the Jays would come.
JotD go to Wise (.209) and Romero (.128).
The Tallet award goes to Janssen (-.475).
Hinske awards go to Arencibia (-.107) and Escobar (-.097).
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Well that sucked
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
That's how you leverage those platoon splits??????
That’s how you make snide remarks about managerial decisions without having facts.
Cano vs LHP 2011 – 339/374/550
Cano vs RHP 2011- 292/340/525
Cano vs LHP 2008-2010 – 296/342/504
Cano vs RHP 2008-2010 – 308/349/482
WHAT PLATOON SPLITS????
because only hitters have L/R splits?
Jannsen is better against righties than lefties, though not by a significant amount
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
well, its pretty significant over his career
just slightly significant this season
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
What are these significant career numbers?
Jannsens splits the three years from 2008-2010 are minimal and he’s been better substantially this year vs LH batters. If you want to go back and use his UCLA or Little League numbers, then yeah Wak screwed up.
what numbers are you looking at?
and don’t tell me ERA or AVG against, because I might punch a wall.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
the numbers I'm looking at
his K rate is significantly better against RHB than LHB this season, nearly 5 K/9 better, and over his career its a full K/9 higher. His BB rate this season is worse against RHB than LHB by 0.88 BB/9, but over his career, his BB rate vs RHB is better than vs LHB by 1.52 BB/9
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
to be fair, his HR/9 rate is worse against RHB than LHB this season and over his career
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I watched the Yankees broadcast and they mentioned
Cano was 3 for 7 against against Janssen and 5 for 25 against Romero
SSS but I think if Ricky’s the #1 you got to leave him in regardless of Cano’s splits
by Matthew Mueller on Sep 3, 2011 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
you're not actually thinking that those numbers mean something, right?
I’d agree that if it was just in a vacuume “Romero vs Cano” or “Janssen vs Cano”, i’d do the former, but Romero seemed like he was out of gas by that point in the game, so I’m not that pissed they brought him out. I’d prefer a lefty, but do we even have a lefty in the pen?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
oh, didn't see the SSS
disregard my title
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
he was a type-A free agent
so the team got two draft picks for him
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
nice, how come they didnt sign him, he is one of best lefty relievers
by jadedeed2327 on Sep 3, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
and he's a reliever
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I lost power halfway through writing the recap (it came back on, obviously)
and ended up having to submit it by hooking my computer up to someone else’s phone. Forgot to mention the umpiring, which was frustrating to watch
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
that's the trouble with those damn boxcars.
but yeah the umpiring, at least at the plate was awful. I don’t know that I’ve every seen an umpire have a totally different strike zone for each tea,
I blog, therefore I am.
The strike zone was just ridiculous today. It wasn’t just balls being called for strikes for strike 1 or strike 2 but our batters kept struck out looking on these outside pitches. Now, if the umps does that for both teams, it’s fine but there were clearly a few times in the games that Romero should have had strike 3 but he didn’t get it. Does it change the outcome of the game? Maybe, maybe not.
Worst strike zone I’ve seen all year.
I'm in love
"One thing I would look at is the amount of opportunities a player’s had to contribute for their own team," Bautista said.
"You can’t really control how many runs you score. You can get on base, but your teammates have got to drive you in.
"With R.B.I., you’ve got to have teammates get on base in front of you…."
- Jose Bautista
from NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/sports/baseball/blue-jays-bautista-and-yankees-granderson-discuss-mvp-criteria.html?ref=tylerkepner
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
pic relevant
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
more gold
RE: Pitchers winning MVP
Granderson argues that pitchers should be considered, but Bautista does not.
"I don’t think so," Bautista said. "They have the Cy Young, and it’s kind of like the same thing for pitchers."
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
I would argue that they could win both
The CY Young is awarded to the best pitcher in each league and the MVP is awarded, obviously, to the most valuable player. Why couldn’t a pitcher accomplish both in a season?
This is the problem with the phrase most valuable
In my mind, that phrase means the best, and therefore, is redundant with the CY. If the Hank Aaron award was as popular or prominent as the Cy Young award, I wouldnt be opposed to letting a pitcher win the MVP, but HA tends to get buried under the CY and MVP.
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
by Pikachu on Sep 3, 2011 11:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It is subject to interpretation.
I would say that “MVP” should be for the guy who has meant the most to his team over the course of a season. Think of C.C. Sabathia in 2009 – 19-8, 3.37 ERA in the regular season, then 3-1 with a 1.98 ERA in the postseason that year. I would say that kind of season calls for consideration for the MVP award. The CY is for the best pitcher, the MVP for the “carrier” of his team. Pitchers can carry a team. I understand the whole “position players play way more than pitchers” argument, but if the pitcher made a huge contribution to his team’s production, he should be considered.
but by doing so the hitting-equivalent of the Cy Young Award disappears
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
the Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher in the league
so where’s the award for the best position player in the league?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
The Silver Slugger and the Gold Glove.
They each recognize a different aspect of the position player’s skills.
Hank Aaron award
For the best hitter in each league
Yeah,
except, a) best hitter does not necessary = best position player (not that best pitcher necessarily = best pitching player, but it’s certainly darn close); and b) no one pays attention to the Hank Aaron Award so it really is not analogous to the Cy Young Award.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
So make up your own award
Since there is no award for position players analogous to the Cy Young.
Add BP WAR and FG WAR and divide by 2. Voila, we have a winner
Except, again,
that doesn’t meet the second requirement.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Depends on whether you're the guy who might win it.
No one says there has to be a position player analog for the Cy Young Award. You were the one who said that the Hank Aaron Award serves that purpose. All I said is that it doesn’t.
Truth be told — as I have already said below — I think exceptional pitchers should be eligible. But I can certainly see why other folks don’t think so.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I said Hank Aaron Award is for best hitter
I didn’t say it was for best position player. i didn’t say it served any purpose.
Go back and read what I said.
Go back and read the post you responded to
The implication is pretty clear.
Pikachu said,
“the Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher in the league
so where’s the award for the best position player in the league?”
You responded,
“Hank Aaron award
For the best hitter in each league”
If you weren’t implying that it is supposed to serve as an analog for the CYA, why bring it up at all?
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
to be fair, i mentioned the word "hitter" on the comment before that
but I meant position player
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Therein lies the error.
The MVP isn’t supposed to be a hitting-equivalent CY. It is meant for the best player in each league – position player or pitcher.
You're conjecturing,
which is fine, but don’t be surprised or offended when someone calls you out on it. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone here actually knows what the MVP award “is supposed to be.” That’s why there are all sorts of arguments about whether or not the winner should come from a playoff team. That’s why there are arguments about whether situational or context-neutral performance should rule the day. That’s why guys like Jim Konstanty have won them. That’s why there are arguments at all, really.
Additionally, the MVP award predates the Cy Young Award, which may be why — at the time - pitchers were considered eligible. Since the advent of the Cy Young Award, it’s become extremely rare for pitchers to win the MVP. This seems to suggest - to me, at least — that many of the voters for the award see it the way Bautista (and many others, of course) do.
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion on the matter, and there are strong arguments for both sides.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Yes, and the same rules have been in place since 1931,
before the Cy Young Award existed.
Also, note that one of the guidelines is “Number of games played.” Whether we like it or not, there is a technical argument in the voting guidelines allowing voters to essentially render pitchers ineligible.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
I agree pitchers should be considered, however,
a) the award is for the regular season. Postseason performance is not available to all players and should not be factored into a player’s candidacy; and
b) C.C. Sabathia had a good, but not even great, season in 2009. He wasn’t even the best pitcher. In fact, he was 9th (!) by rallyWAR and 5th by fangraphsWAR.
In cases of truly dominant pitchers (something like 1984/1985 Doc Gooden or 1999/2000 Pedro Martinez), I understand giving the award to a pitcher (not that it went to one either of those seasons). Any other time, I disagree.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
obviously this isn't thee point of the conversation
But if a pitcher was going to win mvp in 2009, it shouldn’t be anyone but Greinke
Total Internet points: 10 000
by benk on Sep 4, 2011 10:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Right, though, as good as he was, Greinke didn't really set himself apart
enough in my view.
By the way, looking there, I did choose my words poorly — Sabathia did have a great season, though it certainly wasn’t an MVP-quality one.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
didn't he have like 40 straight scoreless innings to start the season?
that’s setting yourself apart if you ask me
Total Internet points: 10 000
in 2010, Ubaldo Jimenez had a 0.78 ERA over his first 80 innings
spanning two months and 11 starts. Roy Halladay won the Cy Young Award unanimously.
In 2009, at season’s end, Greinke’s xFIP was worse than Halladay’s and he pitched fewer innings against inferior competition. I’m not saying that Halladay should have won the Cy Young Award, but MVP-worthy pitchers should be winning the Cy hands-down (Felix Hernandez and Justin Verlander both got 1st place votes). Add the season that Joe Mauer had on top of that and I’d say that the voters made the right call in giving him the MVP.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
Michael who?
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Technically, pitchers can win the award
The rules for voting do not exclude pitchers. However baseball writers vote for awards. Some refuse to vote for pitchers. Some refuse to vote for players on non-contending teams, Basically making up their own rules.
There are some intelligent writers voting for awards, but there are a lot of Richard Griffins also. Personally, I care a lot less about these voted awards than most fans do, for those reasons.
Kyle Drabek
7 IP, 8 hits, 6 ER, 0 walks, 4 K’s
I know the line doesn’t look great but this might be his best start IMO. Threw 103 pitches, 70 for strikes! He was actually throwing a lot more strikes today. Had 14 swinging strikes which is a huge plus.
5 of 6 ER came in the 5th inning on all singles… actually mostly groundball singles so he might have been getting a bit unlucky.
One thing I didn’t like was that he gave up a solo shot in the 7th inning after falling behind 3-1 but for most of the game, he worked ahead in the game.
0 walks
my head asploded
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
That is nice to see
Hopefully, Drabek can keep this up.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
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