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He's back!!! Makes acquiring Colby Rasmus look even better!

Editors note: more to follow later, since I am stuck at the inlaws for the moment

5 months ago Tiny JaysFan101 229 comments 0 recs  | 

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This is mind-boggling

considering the guys we just gave up to get him…I really don’t understand this deal from the White Sox perspective. Great to see Frasor back on the team. Bullpen is looking better and better.

by asalamon on Jan 1, 2012 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

Frasor

This was a dollar deal by the Sox – Williams was looking to cut

by Paul Chicago on Jan 1, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

The Human Rain Delay is back baby!!

+1 is only good if you actually rec the post

by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 1, 2012 1:46 PM EST reply actions  

Don’t care, I alike having him in the pen

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Always liked the guy. Happy to see him back

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder what this means for the 'pen

I hope this means they’ll try Carreno as a starter again and not Perez

by benk on Jan 1, 2012 1:49 PM EST reply actions  

That may be the plan

Send him back to AA…don’t know that I like it though. He has trouble going beyond the 4th inning last year at times, has the prototypical mix for a reliever, and throwing all those sliders…each is an injury risk, so you’d rather he use the bullets at the MLB level.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I read somewhere (wish I could remember...)

that AA wanted to put Carreno in AAA to start out next year.

by REMO on Jan 1, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe it was mentioned on the fan

I know what you mean though, I remember reading/hearing the same thing and I remember it being AA directly.

by Mike Andrew on Jan 1, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
I wouldn’t put him as a favourite now. Starter in AA or AAA to start the year if all goes well. @mattdoublem: @Wilnerness590 Carreno?

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm

They still see him as a starter long-term?

by asalamon on Jan 1, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

that or trade bait

he’ll likely bring back more if he develops into a legit starter

by SuckaMD on Jan 1, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess so

But he did so well as a reliever, I would’ve thought they’d give him a chance to stick with the big-league club.

by asalamon on Jan 1, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That, too, is a possibility

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

True

But you have to weigh that against the risks of trying to do that.

Carreno’s never failed as a starter, but he would lose control frequently in the middle innings last season.

He throws a lot of sliders, so that’s an injury risk. You want to get value out of him before he blows out an arm

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

is there any evidence

that slider-heavy guys are more injury prone? Randy Johnson only threw fastballs and sliders and he was great for a long time without any significant injuries

by SuckaMD on Jan 1, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Some pitchers are more durable than others. Randy Johnson was an intimidating freak of nature.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t think of a link off the top of my head…if something comes to mind I’ll link it.

I mean, it comes down to them placing stress on arms. I believe, from memory, that susing 30+% sliders is associated with higher injury rates

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

I knew there was some stuff, but couldn’t recall the context to find them off the top of my head

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a journal article

Link.

From the results section:

Pitch types were evaluated for their relationship to both
elbow and shoulder pain (Table 2). More than half of all
pitchers threw a change-up and more than half threw a
curveball. Use of the slider was much less common (14%).
Overall, only the slider was found to have a significant
relationship to elbow pain, and this relationship was especially
strong among 13- to 14-year-old pitchers (odds
ratio of 3.49). There was an overall 86% increased risk of
elbow pain among slider users. Use of the curveball accounted
for a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain, without
variation by age group. Use of the change-up pitch was
associated with a 12% reduction in the risk of elbow pain
and a 29% reduction in the risk of shoulder pain, although
neither association was statistically significant.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Though

This is for youth baseball players

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I always saw him as a potential Ryan Dempster type of player, so seeing them try him out as a starter wouldn’t surprise me.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt it but they will let him start if he is in the minors to give him more pitches and innings to work on his stuff, control etc…

Perez stayed as a starter after he was sent down but mainly worked as a reliever since thats where he will likely be and it doesnt hurt to start to continue building that stamina.

If carreno doesnt crack the pen, he will start in AA or AAA.

by Sniderlover on Jan 1, 2012 2:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

So Rasmus for...

Zach Stewart, Edwin Jackson and Octavio Dotel, Scrabble and some cash?

And Dotel has already left, and Jackson will probably be leaving?

If Rasmus is a good centrefielder, is this a coup on par with the Tigers fleecing of the Marlins?

by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 1, 2012 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

Also, I love Jason Frasor

Always have. Welcome back to Toronto Jason!

by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 1, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget Cory Patterson!

We have a '70s throwback logo, an '80s throwback stadium, and we all wish it were the early '90s again.
Follow @ecb282

by ecb282 on Jan 1, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

You take that back, Brian Tallet all the way

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

You can’t really count both Jackson and the guys who were traded to get Jackson.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Jan 1, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Kenny Williams is an idiot

Frasor could have been a a Type B. Instead he picked up his option…so the White Sox get 2 low minor leaguers rather than a first round draft pick…idiotic.

And good on AA for continuing to pick the pocket of one of the few poor GMs left out there

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:02 PM EST reply actions  

That Danks re-signing is looking even more confusing every day.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

honestly

I would probably take Jaye/Webb over a supplemental, particularly in next year’s draft. I think it’s a good trade for you guys, using your depth to solidify the pen, but I think it’s a fairly intriguing move for the White Sox, getting two arms with good upside. IIRC, Webb was more hyped than Jaye, but I think I like Jaye a bit better, as he’s a bit more projectable.

All in all, I think it makes sense for both sides.

by toonsterwu on Jan 1, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Webb was more hyped than Jaye

I think it’s the other way around. I’ve heard Jaye’s name thrown around as one of our sleeper prospects. I haven’t heard a peep regarding Webb.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe

I should’ve clarified. I believe Webb was more hyped in his draft year. He hasn’t progressed that much. I seem to recall folks suggesting that Webb had sandwich round talent that year.

by toonsterwu on Jan 1, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, okay

That makes more sense

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Out of curiosity

Since I didn’t closely follow the 2010 draft at all…if he was thought of as fringey sandwich round talent, why did he fall all the way to the 17th round, as a college player. Was it money?

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe so

but I’d have to actually look it up again. It’s been awhile.

by toonsterwu on Jan 1, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently (from what I read over at South Side Sox) he got $450K. I forgot about that. So there’s some promise there. I still prefer Jaye over him.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he may have meant coming out of the draft. I’d definitiely agree that Jaye is the more valuabel of the two, right now.

And really, neither are top 40 in our system…though that speaks more to our system depth than anything..Jaye in particular could possibly be much higher in Chicago’s system, possibly near 20 or 25

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Jaye has been pitching very well for us but projects to have a lower ceiling from what I’ve read. His ceiling is as a #5 starter or a middling reliever. Webb has not had the results to back it up yet, but is the proverbial “high ceiling guy”. His K/9 numbers are good and he throws hard. What has killed him so far is his BB/9 and his inconsistency. His ceiling; however, is as a back-end of the bullpen type guy. What we like to call a “shutdown reliever” though probably not used in the 9th.

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

update

Jays Journal had Webb listed as #45 on their prospect list and have a scoutinng report up that’s talks about him as a “thrower” with heat and a lot of potential but not much of an idea of how to pitch. Jaye was in their “just missed” list

by khaleeji on Jan 3, 2012 3:37 AM EST up reply actions  

sorry, that was pre-2011

This year has only gotten down to #46 so far. confuzzled

by khaleeji on Jan 3, 2012 6:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Really?

I wouldn’t. Then again (and I’m not trying to take shots here), we’ve had good success with supplementals under AA (and even before then), whereas we all know the White Sox don’t like to spend in th draft

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

So, the Rasmus deal is ultimately

To Toronto:

Colby Rasmus
Mark Teahen
P.J. Walters
Trever Miller
Brian Tallet

To Chicago:

Zach Stewart
Myles Jaye
Daniel Webb

To St. Louis:

Edwin Jackson
Marc Rzepczynski
Octavio Dotel
Corey Patterson

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

Brian Tallet still the most important piece

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Blasphemy!

Trever Miller has Tallet beat!

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

The team wouldn’t be the same without Teahen warming the bench

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Dotel

Brought back one for St. Louis, and so will Jackson

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably

Though, Jackson hasn’t signed anywhere yet.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

So essentially it boils down to

To Toronto:
3.5 years of Colby Rasmus
$12M of Mark Teahen’s salary
Some salary for P.J. Walters, Trever Miller, Brian Tallet

To Chicago:

6 years of Zach Stewart
Myles Jaye
Daniel Webb

To St. Louis:

2 months of Edwin Jackson
5 years of Marc Rzepczynski
2 months of Octavio Dotel
2 moths of Corey Patterson
2 1st round supplementals

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

And a Title that they totally wouldn’t have won with Rasmus as their CF

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Flags fly forever

But who knows what happens if that trade doesn’t happen…I’d be wary to make a causal link

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

nor would they have even made it to the playoffs without Dotel and Scrabble. Both of those guys were huge in their bullpen and getting them helped LaRussa slot everyone else into their most effective places in the bullpen (notably Motte).

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Chicago also got 2 months of Frasor? It didn’t mean anything to them, but still…

by REMO on Jan 1, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

My bad!

Meant to put that there…

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

When is the deadline for teams/players to accept/decline options for the upcoming season

Frasor has a $3.75M option for 2012. Did the White Sox already exercise it?

by SuckaMD on Jan 1, 2012 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

I believe the deadline already passed, and the White Sox did exercise his option.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

It had to be exercised way back in November, before the arb offering and what not occurred

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

that’s probably what it boiled down to. The Sox didn’t want to pay 3.75M for a reliever in a year where they’re rebuilding. From that pespective, they did OK I think.

by REMO on Jan 1, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome back Jason

always liked him but this time hopefully the delays won’t be that long lol

Toronto Sports Fan= Waiting, waiting, waiting.............then more waiting

by noname3 on Jan 1, 2012 2:15 PM EST reply actions  

Santos, Oliver, Frason, Janssen, Litch, Villan, Perez plus 1?
That is a pretty solid bullpen.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:22 PM EST reply actions  

Looks like an improvement over last season’s BP.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

AA is having a firesale on org players none of us have heard of before.

by Spitballer on Jan 1, 2012 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

new blood!

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Also link from twitter is all broken like.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

Duplicate got deleted:(

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh. The Jays bullpen looks like it’s shaping up to be one of the better ones in the game. Santos, Janssen, Frasor, Villanueva, Litsch, Oliver… that’s a nice mix of quality arms.

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 2:27 PM EST reply actions  

Frasor/ Janssen are good backups if Oliver’s arm decides to fall off.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Oliver is a lefty

If his arm falls off, we’ll be short on lefties, but I’m not worried in the least about that

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I have faith in Perez

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

and was thinking of Oliver as the traditional “setup guy”

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d prefer to see him as a situational lefty more than a set-up guy, especially with Janssen and Frasor now as set-up options in the 7th and 8th along with Oliver.

He’s not as bad as Dotel against opposite handed guys, and was quite good last year, but the year before was pretty bad. For me, the higher % of lefties he faces, the better

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

not terrible against RHB, but still might as well maximize his strengths

by benk on Jan 1, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Oliver can be used to face more than just lefties, but he wasn’t signed to be the 8th inning guy, or even 7th. As the bullpen now stands, Santos is penciled in for the 9th, Janssen probably roughly penciled in the 8th (after proving himself last year), Frasor in the 7th (sliding back to the 8th if Janssen struggles or has gotten too many innings in recent games).

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Frasor and Janssen are both very good righty relievers who can get left-handed bats out. They are guys that you can bring in with guys on and trust they can get out of the inning.

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

gregorMLB Gregor Chisholm
#BlueJays having 40 men on the 40-man roster means the club will need to make another move in the coming days to create space for D. Oliver.
5 minutes ag

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:40 PM EST reply actions  

Yep

That was my next thought…candidates: Farina, Farquhar, Magnuson…the usual suspects, try to sneak them through and keep them

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

My money is on Magnuson.

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

They are in the mix for a final bullpen spot no? Obviously one of them has to move anyways though. Teahan anyone?

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

RHP: Janssen, Frasor, Villaneuva, Litsch
LHP: Oliver
Closer: Santos

That leaves one spot…if it’s a lefty, probably Perez, righty I’d imagine Carreno has an inside track. So no room really for anyone at the major league league level from those guys.

Could go Teahen, but I don;t see it. Ou could look at Valbuena too

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

yes 7 not 8 der. anyways I’d go with Perez as well. Random spring training sucesses not withstanding.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you are right, but the Jays did run 8 relievers last year in parts too.

I also think it is very likely that all of Frasor Janssen and Oliver see time in the 8th

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

7th and 8th I’d think…start with one of Frasor/Janssen, if there’s a couple tough lefties go to Oliver, then use the other

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Regardless, I think they are a great group of options at the end of the game

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoops

Sorry, I misread what you had wrote…I read it as “NOT very likely…”

Yeah, I agree. It should be a very good mix

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the quanity of reliable guys for the late innings. Less of a problem if our starters have a rough week.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Injuries / Slumps

At any given time, if our recent history is any indication, there is usually someone or somethree from the bullpen who is hurt or otherwise struggling. So, though, it makes sense in theory to postulate on which 7 will be in the starting roster, what Jays management seems to do and rightly so, is to ask themselves, “who are our 10 reliable major league relievers?” And they make sure that some of them (like Perez and Carreno) have options so they can be shuttled between LV and the big leagues if need be.

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:30 AM EST up reply actions  

however

If we add another SP then McGowan or Cecil could end up in the pen. Cecil would be interesting.

Thus Perez wouldn’t be there.

by Rhinos on Jan 1, 2012 2:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Cecil is looking more and more like someone AA and Farrell like as one of our starters (talk of fitness regime etc), but that could mean they are trying to deal him in a package for a #2. McGowan will start or nothing; we have been told his arm isn’t up for the uncertainty of pitching out of the pen

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:26 AM EST up reply actions  

It will be interesting to see how Farrell will use Santos as he is the obvious choice for the “closer” role

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:47 PM EST reply actions  

Not according to Griffin. Only a setup guy…. What a joke

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a true closer till you are in your mid to late thirtys? Experience and all that I guess.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome back, Jason.

Still scratching my head at Kenny Williams.

Could have traded Danks for a bunch of prospects but signed him
Traded Cost Controlled Closer… for a decent prospect.
Traded oft injured expensive OF for not much
Traded slightly expensive RP for not much.

???

Winning?

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 1, 2012 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

Step 3 ….
Step 4 PROFIT

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Danks has a no-trade in his dirst year correct?

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 1, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Love you too Jason!
Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
Frasor:: “Crazy day, but good news. Happy to be back. My family and I are thrilled to be going back to Toronto”. #bluejays #jays

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:51 PM EST reply actions  

Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
Frasor: (When I was traded) felt like I was never coming back. Emotional day, 1st time I cried since I gave up 5 runs in Atlanta. #bluejays

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Ugh, bad memories

The epic 9 game slide from tope of the AL to back to earth

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at the turnover of our roster.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

It’s crazy that’s there only a handful from that team

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He married someone from TO right?

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

sure did

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

And the first time he screws up, it’ll be back to dumping on him.

It’s interesting. I thought he was terribly unappreciated, the type you only appreciate once he’s gone. SO he went, and now he’s back. Will he be more appreciated?

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m still not his biggest fan, but whatever. He’s definitely an improvement over the likes of pitchers like Trever Miller and Brian Tallet.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

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by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I could have lived with 03 Miller and 06-08 Tallet.

But they were horrible in their thankfully brief 2nd stints with the Jays.

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 1, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

0.0 fWAR 2003 Trever Miller?

Personally, I’d take the 1.0 fWAR 2004 Trever Miller. =P

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Familiarity breeds contempt. Personally I always like him but he was around for a long time and does take a while to pitch.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it really depended on where you were, I seem to remember most around here like having him with the jays

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

The only time I remember people really dumping on him were his failed closer roles in 2007 and 2009. Frasor’s always been one of the better RHP relievers in the game in my mind, and that’s seems to have been echoed.

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I didn’t mean here necessarily, I haven’t been around long enough to really know. Meant Jays fandom in general

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

To me general Toronto fandom seems to follow the newpaper media like they are holding a leash. Toronto has a lot of terrible writers.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know if that’s entirely fair. Toronto has some fantastic writers like Elliot, they have some inconsistant writers like Griffin, and a few legitimately bad ones like Carson and Cox. The Jays blogosphere has been regarded by a lot of professionals as one of the most active and literate, especially considering our relative size as a fanbase.

Now, the people who call into the radio shows… those are the bizarro fans.

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair. Baseball is miles kilometres ahead of hockey. This is while my bile comes from.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I find Elliott good when he sticks to Canadian prospects and such. Great writer, but sometimes I find him quite out of touch with the big league level goings on, especially as it concerns compensation picks

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice quote about Santos
Mike Wilner @Wilnerness590
Frasor: You guys are really going to like (Santos). I’ll set him up any day. I can’t believe Alex pulled him away from CHI #bluejays #jays

by blueandwhite31 on Jan 1, 2012 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

Wonder if he got any Man in White insight?

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d be interested about that too

by blueandwhite31 on Jan 1, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
Frasor: This is great, I don’t know how else to convey that. It’s great. We’re thrilled. I can’t wait to put on those new uniforms.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I reckon I’ll rec that

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Made my laugh out loud

Still remember that episode when Bart used the name “Santos L. Halper” in his credit card scheme.

Follow me @Minor_Leaguer

by Minor Leaguer on Jan 1, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

i remember that one too
good times

I am the Walrus

by yleviticus on Jan 2, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Fangraphs WAR Projection

I found this comment from the Jays forum interesting:

All are based on FanGraphs:

Major Changes – 2B, 3B, CF, CL, Bullpen, Rotation

Jays 2011 2B (Hill/Johnson): 0 WAR
Jays 2012 2B (Johnson): Projected 3.7 WAR
Total Change: + 3.7 WAR

Jays 2011 3B (Bautista/Mcdonald/Lawrie/Encarnacion): 3.9 WAR
Jays 2012 3B (Lawrie): Projected 5.9 WAR
Total Change: + 2.0 WAR

Jays 2011 CF (Davis/Rasmus/Patterson): -0.5 WAR
Jays 2012 CF (Rasmus/Davis): Projected 3.6 WAR
Total Change: +4.1 WAR

Jays 2011 Bullpen (Rauch/Francisco/Dotel/Rzep/Camp): 0.7 WAR
Jays 2012 Bullpen (Santos/Oliver/Carreno/Perez/Random): 2.5 WAR
Total Change: +1.8 WAR

Jays 2011 Rotation (Romero/Morrow/Cecil/Reyes/Villanueva/Alvarez/Randoms): 9.4 WAR
Jays 2012 Rotation (Romero/Morrow/Alvarez/Cecil/McGowan/Randoms): 11.5 WAR
Total Change: +2.1 WAR

Additional Major Changes:

Bautista: -1.0 WAR
Arencibia: +1.0 WAR
Molina → Mathis: -1.0 WAR
Lind: +1.2 WAR
Janssen: -0.5 WAR

-

Grand Total: +13.0 WAR

Obviously there are a ton of flaws you can point out, and injuries will undoubtedly take a big toll, but there is some reason for optimism heading into 2012.

It’s from a reliable poster, as well. Though, 5.9 WAR from Lawrie in 2012? Seems optimistic to me.

Nonetheless, PLAYOFFS!!?

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 3:04 PM EST reply actions  

Going to ask about Lawrie’s projected WAR. I don’t know enough so I’ll ask. Do baseball rookies typically suffer a sophmore slump?

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep. As always can vary person to person

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Way too optimistic on a few guys…Lawrie, Rasmus, Johnson, even JP. I’d be happy with 1/2 that improvement..thrilled even.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously some flaws

but still encouraging. And did they forget to factor in Jayson Nix’s negative WAR in that?

by asalamon on Jan 1, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

A bit optimistic on a few

Lawrie, Arencibia, Lind and Rasmus may be a bit high. But a +7-8WAR with the current group seems a bit more likely.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 1, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Doesn’t look that out of scope. I think they’re overhyping Lawrie, but I actually expect a higher bounce back from Lind and out of LF, so I think it will average out.

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd be happy if Lawrie's production is half that.

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 1, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

So here’s the question. What happens if a deal like Drabek for Garza happens? Does that make us over that 90 wins? If that’s the case, does adding Fielder make more sense as that final piece for contention in 2012-2013?

by dexfarkin on Jan 1, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

If the 3-5 years for Fielder rumours are true I think he makes sense regardless. Garza trade would make us look better to Prince, but I don’t like the cost that has been associated with Garza

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Garza

Would push as a couple wins closer, not sure it gets us to 90 for sure, but I’d say there’sa chance. Then Prince could truly be the piece to push you over the 90 threshold.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Ergh!

Just thinking about the idea of a legitimate 90 win team is making me a little light-headed, and too optimistic. MUST. THINK. CLEARLY/RATIONALLY.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

meh it’s the offseason. The Jays can’t prove or diprove our optimism!

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

looks like he's using Fans projections, not Bill James

ie, crowdsourced scouting and not hard regression, which probably isn’t the best idea.

everyone noticed Lawrie, but I think Bautista putting up 7 WAR is a little optimistic too. I think 6 is more likely, and JPA improving by a win is possible, but I don’t think necessarily likely

by benk on Jan 1, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

keithlaw keithlaw
Most likely not. RT @SeanONeill1985: @keithlaw Are either of the arms the White Sox picked up from Toronto anything worthwhile?

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

Which doesn't really tell us anything

It’s just a probability assessment…the probability of getting anything worthwhile from low-A arms is always against, especially if they don’t have a large draft/IFA pedigree. Who knows if he knows anything about them

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Its more about saving money, and taking a flier on two guys in the meantime. Strange because they picked up the options instead of letting him walk and get the picks

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I suspect they wanted to keep Jason and Quentin in the original plans

But then they signed John Danks to that extension and needed to unload more money to pay for it.

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 1, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly

Though option and pick singular. Though, the one guy above preferred it to a supplmental rounder, and he’s a fairly knowledgable about prospects

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Wilner article on the Frasor trade.

http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2012/01/01/the-return-of-frason-jasor/

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 3:28 PM EST reply actions  

We already know that Doc is awesome

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 1, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm random Daniel Webb fact from Southside socks from Jaysjournal:

“While in HS, the assistant stated that Webb ‘broke his left foot in the first inning, but courageously pitched the entire seven-inning game, which wound up as a 2-1 loss.’”

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 4:10 PM EST reply actions  

Am I the only one that thinks this is more stupid then courageous?

I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...

by JohnnyG on Jan 1, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I think its the athletes job to suck it up

But the coaches job to pull the string. I think its more bad coaching than stupid athlete.

by Mike Andrew on Jan 1, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

unless he hid it until after the game.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I am he only person who hates this trade

There are FA relievers on the market who cost only $$. There are at least 5 extra bullpen options in AAA beyond Santos, Oliver, Janssen, Litsch, Villaneuva, Carreno and Perez. There are more options in AA. Why the hell would you trade for a reliever under these conditions? Just a silly waste of Jaye.

I have no problems parting with a lottery ticket like Jaye ONLY if it a clear long term fix at a position. A one year rental of a decent middle reliever? I mean really? If Jaye turns into something this trade will look like a laughingstock down the road.

Hate giving up assets for one year rentals for a team that shows zero desire to compete this season anyways. I mean who cares if Frasor adds one extra win to a .500 ballclub?

Unless AA manges to flip Frasor for a better prospect than Jaye during the season this trade will irritate me. It’s a relatively minor move so it won’t hurt the Jays much, I just don’t like it.

Plus, I was quite happy to be rid of Frasor. Not that he isn’t a quality middle reliever, he just takes a million bloody years to throw a pitch. Hate watching the game when he comes in.

by Waveburner on Jan 1, 2012 4:12 PM EST reply actions  

what do you think the chances

that either Jaye or Webb turn into good Major League relievers? I’d put the odds that either one has a single above average season in MLB at 20%, and I think that’s generous

by benk on Jan 1, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think 20% is outrageously high...

If you look at any old prospect lists, how many of the top 20 prospects of any one year make the big leagues? Maybe a little more than a quarter…a third at the absolute most. And Jaye and Webb don’t even make any prospect lists.

I’d imagine the odds either of them throw a pitch in the big leagues are below 10%, let alone being an above average producer.

by doc alex on Jan 1, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't particularly care how long the odds are...

Frasor essentially replaces one of Perez or Carreno in the bullpen. The other five spots are taken already. What are the odds that Frasor significantly outperforms either Carreno or Perez in ’12? To me that is simply not valuable enough to part with a high upside arm like Jaye for a team in the Jays position.

Chances are like most prospects Jaye busts, but I just believe that trading a high upide arm like Jaye when he is years away from the MLB (and thus not valuable in a trade) is a poor philosophy in principle. Unless we are talking about acquiring a piece for the Jays long-term future. A mid-30’s middle reliever on a one year contract doesn’t qualify.

I’m not saying it’s a poor trade value wise, I just think it’s a waste of assets for a piece they don’t even remotely need.

by Waveburner on Jan 1, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

But it is not as simple as that

Yes, out of spring training, Frasor will probably replace Carreno, and the difference in value between the two of them is probably fairly minimal. However, this will allow Carreno to pitch as a starter in AAA or AA, getting a lot more work in. Carreno would also then be available for the first inevitable injury that will happen in the bullpen, giving the Jays much needed depth at the position.

Really, the Jays not only get Frasor in this deal, they get Carreno having more opportunities to work as a starting pitcher.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 1, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

There were still other ways of acquiring a middle reliever

if AA felt that bullpen depth was still a pressing need.

Carreno is not young for a prospect and only has two pitches. His future is the bullpen IMO.

by Waveburner on Jan 1, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

short memory

Do you remember what AA did with his “extra” relievers last year? First off, he used them in games because people were injured. The 7-man bullpen typically takes 10-12 men to fill it for the course of a year.

Secondly, and this is the argument that should appeal to you based on your previous line of argument: AA traded our surplus relievers last year and got a tremendous cost-controlled young talent in Rasmus in return.

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Well I did say if Frasor later gets flipped for a similar prospect...

I would be ok with it. I’m just not sure he’ll be able to with the new compensation rules.

There are other ways of securing bullpen depth if AA really felt it necesary.

Banking on something similar to the Rasmus trade occuring again seems foolish. IMO anyways.

by Waveburner on Jan 2, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

but having the resources to do it if possible makes a lot of sense

by khaleeji on Jan 3, 2012 3:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget about the draft pick too

If Frasor pitches as he normally does, he could qualify as compensation-worthy if the Jays decide to let him go.

The CBA did not completely destroy the compensation system. It still exists and AA could use Frasor as another way of picking up a draft pick.

by siggian on Jan 2, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

The new CBA did destroy compensation for Frasor though

The only way to get compensation is to offer the free agent a 1 year contract at a very high value (It is based on the top salaries in the league, but I have heard it would be around 12M). No way Frasor gets offered (or turns down) that much.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 2, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks

Still, Frasor’s a solid bullpen arm and there’s nowt wrong that.

by siggian on Jan 2, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, yes you are
I mean who cares if Frasor adds one extra win to a .500 ballclub

I am pretty sure I heard the same thing when we picked up Santos. The same thing when we picked up Oliver. The same thing when KJ accepted arbitration … At some point, adding wins to a .500 club makes the team better than a .500 club.

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 1, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Straw man much?

Santos is an elite reliever with 6 years of control (with possible upside left). I loved Molina but that was a very good trade IMO.

Oliver is a FA who merely costs $$, which is exactly what I advocated for in my original post.

KJ is the only ML 2B in the organization and again merely cost $$ to bring back. How is he relevant to the Frasor trade?

Frasor essentially replaces Carreno/Perez in the bullpen. I just don’t think that is enough of an upgrade to part with Jaye.

by Waveburner on Jan 1, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

you make it sound like parting with Jaye is a really bad thing

The chances of Jaye being half as good as Frasor is really really low

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Jan 1, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it's a really bad thing...

I even admitted odds are Jaye busts like every other prospect. I just really dislike the philosophy of dealing high upside arms in the low minors for one year of a middle reliever when there were so many other ways of adding to the bullpen. I would have much preferred to simply go into the season with the bullpen as it was (maybe adding some more minor league flyer types) then surrender Jaye for Frasor.

Not a disaster or anything, it just irks me. I’ll get over it, especially if Frasor gets flipped for an equal or better prospect later on. I have my doubts though considering the new rules about compensation picks.

by Waveburner on Jan 1, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Jaye was a reliable low minors pitcher but projects as a “low upside” arm. Webb, whose numbers were much less impressive, is the one in this trade with a “high upside” arm, but as has been stated above, it’s unlikely if he reaches his potential, and even if he does, his potential is to be a Jason Frasor in 3-4 years time.

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Your scouting report is two years old

Jaye is a 20 y/o starter with a fastball that touches 94 now, a slider that flashes plus and a developing changeup. He has number three starter upside, he just happens to be 3-4 years away and thus not valuable in a trade right now. Which i why I don’t like dealing him for one year of a middle reliever.

Webb had upside two years ago. He’s now 22, still has the plus fastball but cannot command it nor does he have a second pitch worth mentioning. Already converted to relief so his upside is as a bullpen arm.

by Waveburner on Jan 2, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

we have plenty of other low minors prospects with number 3 upside

and will surely acquire many more through drafting and trade in the near-term. I don’t think dealing one of these guys away for immediate help is a terrible thing. You do, which is fine, but I tend to see such low-minors-with-number-3-upside players as largely interchangeable and pretty easy to replace.

by SuckaMD on Jan 2, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

also, for what it's worth

neither Webb nor Jaye appeared in Sickels’ list of the Jays’ top prospects which, between the main list and “others of note,” listed 44 different prospects. Giving away 2 guys who are at best your 45th and 46th best prospects for a dependable MLB player (who can potentially be flipped for similar or better players mid-season) is a trade I can definitely support.

by SuckaMD on Jan 2, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Webb was #45 on the pre-2012 Jays Journal ranking. Jaye was on their “just missed” list

by khaleeji on Jan 3, 2012 3:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Webb was 45th on the pre-2011 ranking

And with the season he had, and influx of talent, I can’t imagine he would be top-50 pre-2012

by MjwW on Jan 3, 2012 4:35 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks

I stand corrected. After reading #47, I followed a link to #45 without checking the year. confused much

by khaleeji on Jan 3, 2012 6:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I actually did the same thing

Then I realized that I had started by reading #46 (newest article) so why would 45 be out before it and checked the date.

by MjwW on Jan 3, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it's terrible

Just a waste of assets for an unnecesary piece right now.

by Waveburner on Jan 2, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget

The Jays only have a limited number of roster spots in their minor league teams. AA may have traded these two players simply to make room for new signees or because there wasn’t enough room at the higher levels for those players who graduated from rookie league last year.

by siggian on Jan 2, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's the thing
one year rentals for a team that shows zero desire to compete this season anyways.

The Jays are probably a 83-85 win, true talent team right now, barring any other upgrades. If a couple of guys explode and have career years, and if there’s an extra playoff team, then the Jays could be right there. In which case you want a good bullpen.

And if they’re not very close, there are always teams who need bullpen upgrades in July, and with another playoff team (if it happens), there will be fewer teams out of it and more teams in, which means the supple/demand is more favourable.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Cost of a Complete Bullpen

14 million dollars for TBJ bullpen complete bullpen, wasn’t that the cost of Paplebon

by jensan on Jan 1, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You do realize that Frasor is one of those rare reliable relievers?

In that, every year, you can basically count on him to put up the same (and generally good) numbers. That’s gold. To know that you can count on a reliever to deliver if you send him out there is very valuable to a team that had issues in the bullpen last year.

by siggian on Jan 2, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Jason Frasor and Dave Stieb are #1 and #2 in terms of career appearances with the Jays

And they both spent their entire careers with the Jays except for two months with the White Sox.

Follow me @Minor_Leaguer

by Minor Leaguer on Jan 1, 2012 4:26 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Ha ha awesome

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh

It’s really too bad Steib fell off the proverbial cliff after 1990. He was so good for so long, and then after 33, he was basically done

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea unfortunately I was too young to ever see him pitch in his prime

I did catch him during his come back season in 1998 (that was weird and quickly forgotten)

Follow me @Minor_Leaguer

by Minor Leaguer on Jan 1, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That was my first first year following baseball

I knew who he was, but it didn’t mean much since there wasn’t a visceral connection to the glory years

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

favorite Jay of all time

The guy made Doc look laid back and mellow in comparison..and that slider, best I’ve ever seen.

by ABsteve on Jan 1, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Assuming Santos, Frasor, Janssen, Oliver, Villanueva and Litsch form 6/7 relievers...

Who do you like for the last? (assuming no more additions)

Perez as a second situational lefty or Carreno as another depth right hander that can go a couple innings?

by doc alex on Jan 1, 2012 4:27 PM EST reply actions  

Perez for me

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"He drives that new car around town and feels really good about it." - Ron Wilson
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
"HOPE is more than a postponed disappointment" - Epica

by Redonred on Jan 1, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Perez

Villaneuva and Litsch can soak up innings if needed, the second lefty/total LOOGY is useful given all the lefty heav line-ups in the AL and the East in particular

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Perez

and let Carreno start in the minors. Whether or not his future is as a starter (which seems unlikely if he sticks with the Jays), the best thing for his development is to pitch a bunch, I think. He would also be a very good backup bullpen pitcher in case of injury

by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 1, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Brett Cecil

Actually, I don’t really think so, but it is one valid though fairly unlikely outcome.

by BuffaloSojourn on Jan 2, 2012 1:24 AM EST up reply actions  

You're making a big assumption

which is that all 6 of those are healthy. Typically, a bullpen needs 10-12 major league calibre relievers, some of whom will go up and down between the majors and minors throughout the course of the year, in order to be competitive

by khaleeji on Jan 2, 2012 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

you don't need that

it would be ideal, but a Major League calibre 12th RP (maybe 0.5 WAR over the course of a season) adds, at most, 0.2 WAR over the course of a season over a AAAA arm. it’s really not critical

by benk on Jan 2, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

The Blue Jays have never made a trade on New Year's Day

The trade made earliest in the year was in 2002, when J.P. Ricciardi traded C Mike Kremblas to the A’s for C Tom Wilson on January 2.

Follow me @Minor_Leaguer

by Minor Leaguer on Jan 1, 2012 4:34 PM EST reply actions  

AA say that statutory holidays are for the uninitiated.

by MjwW on Jan 1, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

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