Yanks trade Montero/Noesi to Mariners for Pineda/Campos
This is a pretty big trade. Both Montero and Pineda have high upside. Anyone have any scouting reports on Noesi or Campos?
4 months ago
blueandwhite31
510 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
Sickels on Jose Campo
Per John Sickels, on Campos, in his top 20 Mariners prospects list: “We need to see him at higher levels and his secondary stuff needs refinement, but his upside is very high, he throws hard, and already throws strikes.” Sickels gave him a B grade and named him the Mariners’ number five prospect.
after thinking about it
Montero is still a better chip than Pineda, just because of the “Hitter Vs Pitcher” factor. Campos should end up better than noesi, so I guess it’s a fair deal.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Poor Montero
That ballpark is going to sap his power.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
I dont see what they dont like about this
they trade Montero, who may be a great hitter but essentially has no position, for a great young starter in Pineda and the Mariners No. 5 prospect. Looks like a steal for NY atm
because hitters tend to be more reliable than pitchers
and I really doubt that Montero would not be able to handle 1B. The good thing about this trade for NYY is that they were going to have a big logjam at 1B/DH, and they solved the problem perfectly.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Its normal, they loved Montero and were waiting for him to get promoted
so its not hard to understand the initial reaction
Toronto Sports Fan= Waiting, waiting, waiting.............then more waiting
Yankees also signed Kuroda
good day for them
Toronto Sports Fan= Waiting, waiting, waiting.............then more waiting
Their rotation certainly improved
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Sigh.
I’m absolutely shocked that Seattle would trade Pineda. He’s a stud.
And horribly disappointed that he had to land with the Yankees.
I am the one who knocks.
so is Montero, though
Pineda is a very good talent no doubt, but he started 2011 on fire then really cooled off down the stretch. I was suprised with how not-that-great his season was
What a steal for the yankees.
That’s my initial thought on this anyways.
Kind of wondering where the jays were on this if Pineda was made available, but not 100% on what an equivalent to montero would have cost the jays. Also could have been a case of the mariners targeting one player specifically, so maybe it’s pointless to lament on.
Maybe d'Arnaud + Nicolina (or Syndergaard)?
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 13, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
One year too early
Seems SEA wanted someone who could start for them right away. Pity this did not happen a year from now, when Travis d was ready to step into the full-time C duties and we could have offered JPA.
we could have gotten Jaso probably if we needed a one year solution
though it would’ve taken an okay prospect
Yeah, I was thinking tda + Marisnick.
But then didn’t type it, as that probably exceeds montero in value, unless I’m really overestimating Marisnicks value.
Jack Z has made some really questionable trades recently.
Between this and the Doug Fister trade his reputations gotten a bit tarnished. Don’t like this trade at all for the Mariners, and the AL East just got tougher.
I guess Arod would move into the DH role very soon
Toronto Sports Fan= Waiting, waiting, waiting.............then more waiting
Apparently the Yanks offered the farm for King Felix before they pulled the trigger on this one. Seattle didn’t budge.
pretty silly of Seattle to trade Pineda instead of Felix
Pineda probably offers more surplus value, and the package for Felix would have been huge. The fanbase would have hated it, but still
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Interesting train of thought...
Yanks offered something like their top 3 prospects for King Felix
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
probably would have had to offer a bit more
So lets assume the deal for Felix would have been Montero, Sanchez, Banuelos, and a mid-prospect (I think that’s pretty close to what would have been offered), would you rather have
Felix (and his contract), Montero, Noesi
or
Pineda, Montero, Sanchez, Banuelos, Campos, lesser prospect
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Gonna have to go with Pineda, Montero, Sanchez, Banuelos, Campos, lesser prospect
I think ur right about the Felix package, that sounds about right.
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
I mean
the only way the Pineda side is worse is that it sends a bad message to the fanbase, and really, to hell with that stuff.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
To the casual fans... that's like trying to sell the plague to them...
But if even 2 or 3 of the batch of prospects pan out, it’s a pretty good situation here. Hard to sell to fans though like you said.
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Copy that...
Let’s hope this applies to the Jays too.
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
I like New York’s side here. Pineda good now, and Campos potentially down the road. Montero is really good, but he’s a 1B/DH, lot of pressure on the bat.
wonder if they trade Felix now?
Rangers and Angels are in an arms race, instead of treading water, the M’s might want to load up on blue-chip prospects and build for 4 years out.
That's all we have now
With Snider/EE/Lind/Thames….though it seems like there’s only room for three of them on the roster…need to look at Smoak’s splits…
Thinking about it though
Pineda wasnt as good the second half…if you’re selling him on him, maybe it’s not so bad. It really helps New York now though, maybe that’s what’s imfluencing me.
That was my initial thought as well...
Another argument is that Pineda moves from a pitcher’s park to a hitter’s park… plus the pressure… could affect him a bit as well.
We might also be underrating Montero a bit.
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with that last bit
I think he’ll mash, and I think he could handle 1B. If Fielder can handle 1B, anyone can.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
would have been completely sick to watch a rotation of
Felix, Pineda, Walker, Hultzen, and Paxton
SICK
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
win for both teams
Basically switched elite prospects based on need. Yanks might have the edge cause they’re making the playoffs…
I think fair, but slightly on Yankees side
Hitting prospects typically turn out better, but the flip side is that Montero is probably a 1B/DH, which reduces his value a bit.
The reason I say slighty on the Yankees side is the other part of the trade.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 13, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Really tough to judge
i think an argument could be made for both side, so its a fair trade. I think Campos who many of the expert are talking about will be the wild card
Toronto Sports Fan= Waiting, waiting, waiting.............then more waiting
Mostly fair trade
I’d say the Yankees, because Pinada matched with the acquisition with Kuroda stablizes their rotation for next year. Campos has a ton more upside than Noesi and Montaro, while a great bat, is not in the best park for his profile. In the long term, it might end up being a better haul for the Mariners in time, but the Yankees really can live in the short term for pitching value now.
slump
I’m guessing Pineda has a poor first year in pinstripes. Down the orad he’ll be steady for them, but his second half indicated a major sophomore slump may be in order before he figures things out. The pressure of NY will not be a good place for him to go through that
his second half was bad by ERA
but it was almost entirely unsustainable BABIP regression, his K:BB ratio was virtually unchanged
yankees. harder to get an ace than a great DH bat and yankees also filled a need.
its really rare to see pitchers as young as pineda to get that many strikeouts and walk so many few people since power pitchers usually struggle with command a lot, especially early in their careers. pineda is a bit more proven than montero as well. Got a solid high upside arm too.
Man
the more I look at it, the more I think Seattle would have been way better off trading Felix instead
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
do tell
because they’d get a better package? see pineda as a better pitcher eventually? just curious…
Pineda has more surplus value and, yet, Felix would result in a better package...
Need a new signature? Why not Zoidberg?
by dannyofbosnia on Jan 14, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Just when I have glimmer of hope
The Yankees go out and do something like this.
Realistically
2012 wasn’t the year. If anything, this may make them weaker 3 years out, which is more when our roster should be peaking
Doesn't really make them any weaker in 3 years
They just have a young pitcher in the place of a young hitter.
Pitchers are more volatile than hitters…Pineda could blow out his arm (had injuries in the past). Montero was an elite bat
I'm thinking
the Yankees could just go out and buy more bats if they need to….when was the last time they had a home grown bat?
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
by T.Dot_Bronco on Jan 14, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Cano
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 14, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
Gardner
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 14, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
I'll give you Cano
but I don’t like Gardner’s bat all that much…he’s a good player all around though
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
by T.Dot_Bronco on Jan 14, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
lol
The Jays have had such great records against the Sox, Yankees and Rays over the past 3 or 4 years. We are still a 4th place team with a very suspect starting rotation.
I thought Tampa has owned us?
I’ll have to check
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
by T.Dot_Bronco on Jan 14, 2012 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
Rumours are they are going after Carlos Pena now
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
Saw it on twitter from Heyman... not the most reliable but it could have legs...
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 23m Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
so #yankees get pineda & kuroda. they arent done. calling around for a hitter. carlos pena/others in play now.
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
and I really really doubt Yankees will sign Fielder
contrary to popular belief, even they don’t have infinite money
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Yeah, even with 2 wild cards
You would have Boston, Tampa, and one of Texas/LA being the favorites. Jays are not at any of their levels yet.
eh
the Kuroda deal affects it, don’t think the Montero deal actually makes a ton of difference one way or the other
Short term, yes
Long-term, they can’t afford to fill it with Prince considering they’ll have a 40 year old Jter, A-Rod, etc
Someone on twitter said Prince could sign for 1 year
Cause market is better next offseason. Jays should do that.
I dunno about that
we should just offer him a low multi year deal since he may want to take it instead of waiting
Dunno about the Jays doing that
Or Prince doing it?
I'd be shocked if that happens
Too much risk for Fielder…he’ll get his 7-8 year+ deal. The market is just heating up…all you need is one of Texas, Washington, etc
Buster makes a really good point
why didn’t seattle trade Lee for Montero instead?
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Here's the deal:
Lee was traded to the Texas Rangers with Mark Lowe for Justin Smoak and prospects Blake Beavan, Josh Lueke and Matt Lawson
by blueandwhite31 on Jan 13, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting
mikeaxisa Mike Axisa
You know what? Based on what Latos and Gio cost, the Yankees freaking stole Pineda.
I would agree, but you’d have to factor in the fact that Gio and Latos trades were horribly one-sided. This deal is much more fair.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Latos & Gio
Latos was pretty equal; the A’s won the Gio trade, but not by nearly as much as the Yankees just won this one.
Fu*kin Yankees
Why’d they have to go and improve their rotation? I was looking forward to a potentially disastrous season
Well, if there are 3 WC spots this season
There is still hope!!1
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
*2 WC spots
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
not only time
it’s a much more hitter friendly ballpark. His numbers relative to league/ballpark should remain roughly the same, but his numbers overall will look worse.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
huh
strange. Pineda and Morrow had the same xFIP of 3.53 in 2011, and I expected Morrow to have the lower xFIP-, but both have the same xFIP- at 87… Is Safeco not as hitter-friendly as I thought?
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I dunno about what’s feeding into the guts of those calculations, and honestly I can;t be bothered to look into it right now, but Safeco is above average for pitchers and Rogers is below average…this is fairly unanimous
yeah, that makes sense intuitively
I was just wondering if anyone has (or know where to get) the actual park factors
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Safeco is a pitchers park, with a caveat
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
Not sure where you found xFIP- but I am assuming it uses the average home run rate of the home ballpark rather than the average home run rate leaguewide? At least according to ESPN, the difference between the home run rate at Rogers and Safeco isn’t as big as I expected but there is a big difference in the scoring rate between the two parks. Somehow Rogers Centre is above average hitters park across the board but Safeco is well-below average in allowing extra base hits (thus accounting for the suppression of scoring) but average in allowing home runs. If xFIP- uses average home run rate of ballpark in its calculation, then the comparable home run rates between Rogers and Safeco would mean that Morrow and Pineda would have pretty similar xFIP-
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
cool
I still think it has some flaws (though, really, I don’t think perfect park factors exist), but the 96/95 wOBA for LHB/RHB in Safeco seems intuitively right. 103/100 for Yankee Stadium.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
You should see the Padres
90/92
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
I like the 114/116 split where home runs are concerned. =P
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
I found the 130/144 split for triples at the Rogers Centre to be a bit surprising.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
please use a different word not just take out one letter =)
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 13, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For those that put up fanshots
i have removed them, you can share your thoughts here. (since it was a small paragraph)
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
Keep in mind that Pineda's never pitched in the "new" Yankee stadium
Hasn’t done so well in the AL East parks but it is very SSS.
He loved pitching at SafeCo.
The 2nd half tail off was pretty ugly
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 13, 2012 11:52 PM EST reply actions
hers to hoping it stays ugly!
/drinks
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 14, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
tail off - No way
Not only will Pineda have pressure not to “tail off” this year but at this point, he will probably have to pitch his a$$ off in a couple playoff games. A lot to ask of a P who has 170 ML innings to his name.
Weird
trade by the Mariners. Campos is what Pineda was 4 years ago. No guarantee obviously, but that’s alot to give up for Montero, who’s probably gonna be a DH, and Noesi.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 14, 2012 1:07 AM EST reply actions
I don't think it matters where Montero plays
When you consider the M’s are in such desperate need of hitting
I don't like how people say flat out that Montero would be a DH
is there absolutely no chance that he sticks at 1B, even as a below average defender?
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Without knowing much about how the Mariners see him, I’m sure they are going to try him at 1B. The issue isn’t so much that he doesn’t have a fielding position to play since there really isn’t much difference in terms of position scarcity for a DH or a poor fielding 1B. What devalues Montero somewhat is that, like pitchers, he can only contribute to a limited portion of a team’s victory. Though not quite like a SP that pitches every 5 days, but a guy that is a solid hitter for 4 at bats and contributes nothing defensively has limited value compared to a guy that is an above average fielder. This isn’t so much a knock on Montero as he is who he is, but his hitting has to be extraordinary to match a lesser hitter that fields a more defensively demanding position to have the same value.
Which brings us back to the original post
That Pineda and Campos is a pretty high price for a big bat that is a zero on defense at best.
I think "big bat - zero defense" is misleading
People call guys like Miguel Cabrera and Robinson Cano “big-bat” guys, but obviously Cabrera’s a much better hitter than Cano. The phrase is adjusted for position, I think. Montero’s a big-bat “for a zero defense player”.
Semantics really, but I think you have to make the distinction
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
If Montero becomes something similar to Edgar Martinez
Then that big bat could be huge, even as a DH.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
If Montero becomes a top-50 all time hitter? Yeah, then Seattle wins. But that is just incredibly unlikely. He’s at best the 3rd best positional prospect in baseball, which hardly makes him a likely hall-of-famer.
Probably the second best hitting prospect though
Better hitter overall than trout
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 14, 2012 9:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
"at best"
Pineda is definitely more valuable than any pitching prospect but Matt Moore, a clear #2.
Lots of people would rank some of Profar, Mesoraco, Machado & Rendon ahead of Montero. So he’s not a clear 3 among position prospects.
Teheran over Pineda is difficult
Teheran has the edge with MiLB numbers and age, but Pineda’s performance in the majors is really hard to ignore. I’d have them even.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Well
I’d be happy to have any one of them…and Pineda has proven it at the MLB level, which is a point in his favour. But the proposition was that he was more valuable than anyone but Moore, but better. Teheran has the full 6 years, as does Moore, one of Pineda’s cheapest year is gone. So, if you just use the 40/60/80 rule of thumb for the arb years, you get 5 years of Pineda for roughly 2 years cost if he were a free agent (including the MLB minimum), or 3 surplus years. You get Teheran/Miller for 6 years at roughly the same equivalent free market cost, so 4 surplus years. So basically, you have to think Pineda’s around 30% better (4/3 less a bit for the extra year’s salar at MLB minimum) to be equally as valuable. I’ll bet on Teheran or Miller for that reason, though talent wise they’re similar IMO
I think I understand what you are getting at
But Cano may have been a bad example. When I refer to Montero as a big bat guy, its relative to other players irrespective of positions and not necessarily contingent on positions. This is also usually the case with great hitters like Cabrera and Cano who are just good hitters stacked up against anyone else in the league. By comparison, at a position like catcher, Brian McCann is a big bat for a catcher. Montero’s bat is special and may one day be a big bat regardless if he ends up playing catcher, DH or any other position
okay
so we’re on the same page. I think Montero’s value as a player already takes into account his weak defense; he still comes out as a top prospect.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Agreed
But his floor is made considerably lower if he can’t catch since his value would be tied entirely to the continued development of his bat. As a catcher, he would be a sensational prospect with a more palatable floor if his bat doesn’t pan out (i.e. he could still be a good bat for catcher). If he can’t catch, he’s only valuable if he becomes a big bat guy irrespective of positions
yes but it isn't "If he can catch"
There’s almost no way Montero can cut it as a full-time catcher, and if he could, he’d be the top prospect in basball. His current value as a top-10/top-15 prospect is based on the fact that he’ll be splitting time as a C/DH, leaning towards DH
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I guess what I’m really questioning is whether he can be a legitimate top 10 prospect when he has a good but unproven bat (remember, he stagnated at triple A last year) yet doesn’t play defense. If he isn’t, is that worth Pineda and Campos? I’m tending towards no
by No Way Jose on Jan 14, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Am I missing something? Is Montero really that bad a defensive catcher. The value of this trade for the Mariners goes way up Montero stays behind the plate and handles it ok.
Ya
he’s pretty damn awful. I don’t see there being more than a 1% chance that he sticks at catcher.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 14, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
No
one is mentioning Justin Smoak. Are they just gonna give up on him?
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 14, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Possibly
but from a Mariners perspective, I just stick Montero at DH immediately and maybe as a 3rd Catcher and keep playing Smoak at 1B. Hit Montero some groundballs so he can take over at 1B in a few years if Smoak busts and he doesn’t.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 14, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i bet he stays at C
i doubt the mariners do this trade if they think he’s just a 1B/DH going forward.
That’s what I’m thinking. He’s not a good enough catcher for a playoff-contending team, but he’s probably a good enough catcher for Seattle
that doesn't really make sense
did you mean that Seattle can afford to try Montero at C because they’re not competing?
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
So who do you think won?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
If it was just purely Pineda - Montero, I think Seattle won
but Campos seems like a pretty good prospect, shifts the deal slightly for the Yanks’ favour.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
It's a fair trade
But I’m pretty pissed that the Yankees managed to land Pineda and Kuroda in the same day. They addressed their main needs immediately.
Now a mostly optimistic outlook is turning into a relatively normal outlook yet again.
If I bled any more blue, you'd think I wasn't human.
they also lost a big piece in Montero
going from Montero to Pineda is pretty even
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Second half decline
I think his decline in the 2nd half is somewhat exagerrated. The second half ERA looks ugly, but we should know better by now than to simply rely on ERA. Pineda’s K/9 and BB/9 were consistent throughout the year and his FIP and xFIP are well in line with what he did the rest of the year (http://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits.aspx?playerid=5372&position=P&season=2011). The “decline” we saw was due to a shift in his BABIP from an unsustainable ~.240 in the first half to ~.275 in the second half (I can’t be bothered now to do the proper math but the numbers are all there) as well as a spike in his home run rate. Digging a little deeper, his groundball rate increased markedly in the second half compared to his first half, while his flyball rate dropped. In essence, Pineda induced more groundballs in the second half, a positive sign for a young strikeout pitcher, and reduced his flyball just to see more home runs fly out of the park and more groundballs find holes in the defense.
by No Way Jose on Jan 14, 2012 1:48 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Gm aa is working the phones right now…that pariah Burnett, yeah we’ll take him off your hands if you just pay his salary…
by brent in Korea on Jan 14, 2012 4:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Unbelievable
I hope Jack Z. is getting a nice, healthy deposit in an offshore account for this one. How Montero is preferable to Pineda is a mystery to me, especially as Pineda is already in the top quintile of starting pitchers, and I fear Montero’s career will look a lot more like Billy Butler’s than Carlton Fisk’s. Montero doesn’t have elite contact, walk skills, and even his power doesn’t look impressive next to guys like Paul Goldschmidt or Anthony Rizzo (who is the same age as Montero, and presumably was just available to Seattle for the low, low price of a slight upgrade on Andrew Cashner); he’s a huge guy with little room for physical improvement, he’s a classic “old-player” skilled guy who is more likely to reach his peak early and decline early, he might not even be able to play 1st, he has no speed.
And then, to pour salt in the wound (adding a squeeze of lime and twisting the concoction in with a rusty, ragged knife) Zduriencik threw in a probable top-100 prospect in Jose Campos.
Why the hell does it have to be the Yankees who benefit from the most unbalanced trade of the offseason?
Why do I like him so much?
Hes cost controlled, pitches fast, is above average AND has room to improve.
He was made for AL East.
by Mike Andrew on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Montero has more team control
is a hitter (ceteris paribus, better than a pitcher), his season was not as good as his All-Star appearance made him seem.
Pineda’s great, would love to have him, but Montero is an elite bat and it’s not like Pineda is already putting up 6 win seasons
True
I think the Mariners won the trade, but still I’m just angry we didn’t offer D’Arnaud + somebody (Thames/Snider) for him. (Or maybe we did and it just didn’t come out yet).
Hes easily one of my favorite players so I might be biased, but isn’t Pineda a 22 year old All-Star? Didn’t he kind of “Lawrie” last season?
I’m almost as mad as when we lost Darvish tbh, just because we have to face Pina so much this year now.
by Mike Andrew on Jan 14, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Lawrie put up similar WAR
in a quarter of the playing time that Pineda had. Pineda’s first half was outstanding, buoyed by a completely unsustainable BABIP. his second half was far more pedestrian. he’s definitely a good player, but I think people are being blinded by his All-Star appearance. he was “just” a 3 WAR pitcher – very good for a rookie season, but not all that amazing
Pitchers have a much harder time putting up WAR
than position players.
Whats the average pitchers WAR compared to average position player WAR?
What the maximum pitcher WAR compares to the maximum hitter WAR?
Justin Vernlander got 8.6 rWAR and Kemp still beat him at 10 rWAR. Look at a top 10 list.
First, you need to look over over a longer frame than just one year.
Second, using averages of all players would be meaningless because of all the players you get very little playing time.
Third, position players put up more WAR than pitchers. Why? Half of baseball is scoring runs, half is preventing runs. Position players do all the runs scoring (ignoring pitcher hitting), and position players do run prevention as well through defence. But they also hit.
There’s no easy answer to that question.
by a factor of four?
Lawrie’s WAR for 150 games was like 9… Pineda’s was just under 3 in a full season
not to belabour the point
but Pineda’s rookie season was good (about as good as Romero’s). Lawrie’s rookie season was freaking ridiculous
Well
Lawrie’s rookie 6 weeks was freaking ridiculous, just as Pineda’s first 3 months was ridiculous.
Let’s see how things play out over a full year
by MjwW on Jan 14, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yes to Lawrie point, no to Pineda/Romero
Pineda’s rookie season was not as good as Romero’s rookie season. Similar innings pitched, but Romero’s peripherals were greatly inferior, leading to across-the-board inferior advanced metrics. Romero’s FIP/xFIP/SIERA was 4.33/4.05/4.21. Pineda’s numbers last year were 3.42/3.53/3.36. That’s a big gap, and Pineda was more than 2 years younger.
by gabrielsyme on Jan 15, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
look at ERA-/FIP-/xFIP-
the gap is much closer, though Pineda still has the edge
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
run scoring was about half a run per game higher in 2009 than 2011
which is why, as Pikachu says, we should use relative measures and not absolute measures.
by WAR, the two seasons were extremely close. (0.1 WAR difference, ie a rounding error)
Pineda also pitched in Safeco
a much more pitcher friendly park than SkyDome
I did not know that either
It makes a lot of sense…I’d imagine they use adjusted wOBA too, which explains why when I was trying to extrapolate out the league average wOBA by using various players, I was getting slightly different numbers.
Not quite...
we should use both measures. Improved pitching league-wide doesn’t make Romero a better pitcher. Of course, ceteri paribus, we’d expect the change to be 1/2 better pitching and 1/2 worse hitting. I’m sure a study could indicate what the rough division of responsibility for the change has been, but without further knowledge, we should only attribute 1/2 of the run environment differential to tougher hitters in 2009.
We faced Pineda 3 times last year
We play 18/162 games against New York this year, or 1 in every 9. Assuming Pineda is healthy and makes 32 starts, that’s an expectation of 3.5 starts against him. Of course it you be higheror lower, but we don’t expect to face him much more than last year
looking at Montero’s stats in the minors… He strikes out a lot, doesn’t walk that much, and doesn’t hit for that much power. On top of that, he plays 1B. Is he really that much better than, say David Cooper?
Really, this is infuriating.
I would LOVE to see how this quote plays over at Pinstripe Alley
Is he really that much better than, say David Cooper?
yes he is better than Cooper
the age difference is huge.
Blogging about the Toronto Blue Jays at Bluebird Banter
I love Cooper
But Montero is a few tiers above that.
by Mike Andrew on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
After assimilating this trade...
I’m afraid now the Blue Jays rotation looks mediocre when you compare it with NYY and TBR.
Wasn’t adding a “top of the rotation” SP a high priority this off-season AA? What happened?
I’m sorry but I’m not drinking the cool-aid regarding our “prospects” (except H. Alvarez); this off season has been a bust IF the Blue Jays don’t make any more moves that address the rotation.
by Marcos Montenegro on Jan 14, 2012 12:48 PM EST reply actions
It's not for lacking of trying.
I know, let’s make a panicked move.
Let’s trade Lawrie, D’Arnaud, Snider, Hutchinson, McGwire AND Gose for AJ Burnett.
That’ll impress the media and the fans clamoring for action.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 14, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Not for lack of trying? I’m not so sure. We know that some excellent starting pitchers were available for prospects. But I get the strong feeling that AA is unwilling to trade his prospects (Molina notwithstanding), even for good young pitchers under control for several years. If this is indeed his starting point, how can we say that he seriously tried to improve the rotation?
The other question I have is: why exactly is he so unwilling to trade prospects, given the excellent minor-league system that he’s built? After all, part of having a lot of prospects is the ability to some of trade them for major-league players. So far, he hasn’t done this (with one exception), and I wonder if it comes back to the payroll…
"So far, he hasn't done this (with one exception)"
So he has done it
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 14, 2012 1:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This is it? This is your rejoinder? How about you add something of substance, instead of throwaway lines?
You asserted that Anthopoulos has not traded his prospects for major league players
when he obviously has with Rasmus and Santos.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 14, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There is much to be said
For using a “Spartan” (read: as little words as possible) manner of speaking. Why use more words, when you can make the same point in less?
Not really the point
There was very little, if any, substance to the comment, that was criticism, not how many words were used.
but take into account that
there was very little substance in the original comment in the first place
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Sorry
I didn’t mean to take sides….I meant there was little perceived substance, and so it wasn’t a matter of using too few words
As far as I interpreted
The substance was “you just contradicted yourself”.
but prospects begin to accumulate serious value when they're closer to the Majors
and we have several excellent pitching prospects, presumably all of whom, besides Molina, AA thinks can be good MLBers. agreeing with MjwW below, I think AA wants to get a better sense of what we have before he starts selling moving prospects by the buttload.
and yeah, if he’s done it once, it means it’s not an organizational philosophy not to do so
I don't know where you get that he's not willing to trade prospects
In the past 2 years he has traded Pastornicky (in the Escobar trade), Stewart (to get Rasmus), Molina (for Santos), and Wallace (for Gose). I think he is definitely willing to trade prospects, but is not willing to do it without careful consideration and just to appease an a fan base who are clamouring for this team to finally start competing.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Me too. Okay, so there are two exceptions. Anyway, I understand the idea of “seeing what we have,” but (i) the prospects would be traded for good, young major leaguers, and (ii) many prospects won’t make it, so it’s better to trade them early (maybe like Molina). I’m not talking about giving up the farm, I’m simply wondering aloud about why AA hasn’t been able to improve the starting rotation. I suppose we’ll come back to this question at the trading deadline…
in all likelihood
because other teams were willing to pay more. every talking head always says that AA is interested in every player, so he almost certainly had an offer on the table for the pitchers moved this offseason
yes, if d’Arnaud was the starting point for a deal for Pineda, I’m glad we stuck with what we have. Just because they’re not in the majors yet, doesn’t mean a prospect’s going to be worth less to the franchise.
I would think based on the M's getting Montero
they would have been looking for Lawrie, since he is more comparable to Montero than d’Arnaud (in terms of ability to start in the majors next year and being an impact bat).
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 15, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
4 exceptions
3 of which were traded for “good, young major leaguers”,
Also, there was already an inherent starting rotation improvement compared to last year by having Alvarez and McGowan in it instead of Jo-Jo Reyes and Villaneuva.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Too many "ifs" in our rotation
Do you honestly think the Jays rotation will be able to provide us with a winning record against the Rays, Yankess and Sox? Sorry we will still be a 4th place team.
we don't need a winning record against those three
that’s actually not a requirement for making the playoffs; wins against those three teams aren’t worth more than wins against other teams
Sorry I disagree
The Jays have to have at least a .500 record against these teams. Considering we play about a third of our games against these teams, it is extremly important to play much better in our division.
Theoretically, a win is a win is a win, whereever they come from.
In practical terms, it’s very difficult to compete for the playoffs without a good division record because the bar is that much higher elsewhere
yes but defeating NY BOs or TB
also inflicts a loss on them
2011 record against the AL Beast
12-6 Orioles
6-12 Tampa (UGH!)
8-10 Boston
7-11 NYY
Record was 33-39
The team that really owns the Jays is those damn Rays.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 14, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Pfft
Whens the last time a team that was built to win the world series actually won
Its always the cinderalla story, the team that catches a little magic.
We don’t want to be the phillies, we want to be the cards!
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 14, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Many of the prospects won't make it
But some will, and some will make it in a big way. In aggregate, more prosepcts will likely take steps forward than fall – in other words, you expect to build balue as they move closer to the MLB level
Not everything will turn out this way, but do youu think Milwaukeeis happy in hindisght that they traded a prospect in Lawrie for a good starter with 2 years control?
Bingo
The best way to make bad decisions is to try and keep up with the Joneses. I’d much prefer he just keep making opportunistic acquisitions.
To me, it’s not a question of “keeping up with the Joneses.” The opportunistic acquisitions that he’s made will not always be available. At some point, he will have to make moves to acquire major-league talent, perhaps overpaying (within reason) with prospects. I don’t know if this off-season was the time, but I hope it will come at some point.
OK, fair enough. I’m willing to be patient. But I think that moves will have to be made at least next off-season, in order to put a competitive major-league team on the field.
Only problem with this theory
Is that the Yankees and Sox simply don’t sit back and wait for the prospects to develop.
they don't have to
because they’re already competitive. the Sox and Yankees don’t continuously improve ad infinitum, they make consumption-smoothing moves to win more now as opposed to later. you can’t tell me Cano, Gardner, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buccholz haven’t played a huge role in those teams’ success
I agree
I think AA will develop elite players from our farm unlike his predecessor. In this division you have to develop players and fill holes with free agents. Gardner is not an elite player and I dont think he has played that much of a role in the Yankees success.
Ricciardi
developed Romero, Marcum (turned into Lawrie) and (sort of) Stewart (Rasmus).
Gardner has been worth 9 wins the past two years. if not elite, that’s still the second best player on the Jays
I like how people still underrate Gardner
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 14, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He has averaged 5.14 fWAR / 4.04 rWAR per 550 PA in the majors
That’s, like, really really really good.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Ricciardi was an idiot
His drafting approach was laughable, not too mention signing wells and rios to idiotic contracts. Throw in his lying and whining, I personally think he was the worst GM the Jays have had.
Are you serious
If someone disagrees they are accused of being childish. lol
you called Ricciardi an idiot
called the Rios deal (you know, to the player who had been the best right fielder in baseball) idiotic
the Wells contract was pretty awful, no doubt
but there’s lots of evidence that ownership made him (JP) do it
He was an idiot
The whole Dunn issue proves this. Then lying about calling him.
no personal attacks
do not call someone childish!
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 14, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
JP was mediocre at best
Anyone who publically lies, like JP did, yes is an idiot.
Worse than Ash?
I don’t buy that.
He did a good job or tearing down a bloated roster, and as you say his drafting approach was bad, and it hurt us for 5 years. But we did get some good value out of the draft, so it wasn’t a complete write-off.
I think so
Ash brought in Wells, Halladay, Hudson and he didnt whine and lie unlike Ricciardi.
You are wrong
the best record the Jays had under the whiner was 87 wins in 2006.
I didn't hear a lot of people calling Rios' and Wells' contracts "idiotic" at the time
In fact I heard a lot of folks saying how great it is that the Jays finally had a GM who retained homegrown talent.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 14, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
I judge GM based on what is known (or what should be known) at the time a move is made, not looking back. For example Gord Ash’s Mike Sirotka trade was idiotic because he should have known about Sirotka’s medical condition.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 14, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Wells and Rios never put up Elite player Numbers
Blame JPR or the whole organization, but Wells or neither Rios never put the numbers up to justify the contracts.
>14WAR in 3 seasons preceeding an extension
as Rios put up is pretty elite.
huh?
I thought your point before was that Rios had justified getting his extension with his play just prior to it. I’m agreeing with you here
Sure they do
They weren’t willing to trade Montero until he was in AAA (2010 Cliff Lee) because they wanted to maximize his value.
Likewise, they’ve resisted trade Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances, until they’re major league ready and you get more value.
Most of our farm system value lies in the lower levels, so you need to give it time to develop. You don’t see the Yankees trading Mason Williams and Dante Bichette
We are not the only team with prospects in the lower levels
Yankees have a very deep farm system as well. Any team is lucky if a third of their top 10 even become regulars at the mlb level. I like what AA has done. However, this team will need to do more then simply have a strong farm system if they hope to make it out of the east.
the Yankees do not have a deep system
at least not one that is comparable to the Jays. the Jays likely have the deepest system in baseball.
Well experts might disagree
Maybe theYankees will be rated lower this year, but last year the Yankees farm system was rated right around where the Jays were rated.
Huh?
My point is, MLBTR reports rumours, they’re not prospect experts and don;t employ prospect evaluators. So I don’t really care how they rank prospects.
On the other hand, Baseball America ranked the Jays 4th and the Yankees 5th, so there’s something to what you said about the Yankees system, at least last year. The Jays system has got much deeper, and the Yankees thinner since then however
The point that you are missing is
The Yankees don’t often trade their prospects at the lower levels, they let me (in aggregate) gain value. The Jays should do the same
Couldnt agree more
I would just like to see the organization address weaknesses ( like our starting rotation), like elite organizations do.
we have
we have acquired a starter with enormous upside (Morrow), third base (Lawrie), shortstop (Yunel), centre field (Rasmus), and bullpen
An elite organization
Would sign Edwin Jackson, and regret one year later or a couple years later, and just write-off the contract and the same the next year..like the Yankees with Colon, Pavano, Burnett or the Red Sox with Dice-K or Lackey
Not really a valid arguement
Considering their Yankees have missed the playoffs once in the past 10 years and the Sox have won a couple of world series. The Jays havent had a meaningful game in Septmenber since 93.
Maybe
Problem is since the mid 90’s the Jays have been mediocre. Not good and not terrible. Weak Canadian dollar and GM’s who were also mediocre at best. I am actually more confident with AA. I just want the Jays to address the starting rotation.
The point
Is that these “elite” orgaizations paper over their mistakes with money. At this point, the Jays can’t do that, and it doesn’t really make sense to sign an Edwin Jackson type to upgrade the rotation, given the expected value you get on these type of contracts
I'd encourage acquiring Edwin Jackson
if he’ll take a 2-3 year deal at around $10M per. Given the lack of rumours around him, he may end up taking that, but Boras is his agent so you never know what kind of deal he’ll demand.
I doubt it's this low
I’m not a big fan of Jackson at all, and I think he’s a walking injury risk given his slider usage, but I’d be somewhat interested at that level.
But I think he’s get 4 years, 45-55M before the winter’s through, and I’m not remotely interested at those levels
Many "ifs" there again
Morrow has to be much more consistent, this may or may not happen. Rasmus, well he has the physical tools, but time will tell if he has the mental skills. Yankees had a questionable rotation and they address it. Why can’t the Jays do the same with their starting rotation?
oh my goodness
the hindsight bias is overwhelming.
Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia is “addressing a questionable rotation”?
I think the addressing the rotation
Referred to what they just did yesterday, not what they did last year.
okay
but what that shows is that the time isn’t right to address certain things every offseason. the Yanks are basically the same team and talent as last year, but Kuroda and Pineda weren’t available. goes right back to the opportunism vs. keeping up with the Joneses discussion from before
Right, I agree
In general, the price for pitching upgrades has been very steep. ANd whatever the quality of Pineda, Mntero is a steep price
When is it the wrong time to improve your team?
If you can pick up a Pineda, you only do it when the time is right? Please. We are going into the season hoping to compete with Cecil, Drabek and McGowan?
Who would you be willing to give up for Pimeda?
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 14, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Pineda has #1 starter credentials
Probably could have gotten him for Drabek and D’Arnaud
doubt that
I don’t really see how Drabek could be worth more than a B prospect after his 2011 season, and since he has to be worth than the other guy as Montero is better than TDA
and d'Arnaud has all-star catcher credentials
and your are selling unbelievably low on Drabek. Plus, why would the Mariners do that if they are looking for a ML bat this year?
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
d'Arnaud has had one nice year at AA
My point is that Cashman has improved his starting rotation the Jays have not.
Yes he did
But he also gave up a major asset to do it. And that’s fine. But the Jays aren’t in the same position as the Yankees.
Compared to last year
the Jays have improved their rotation. Alvarez > Jo-Jo and McGowan > Villaneuva.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Well, there are never guarantees
Kuroda is old and coming to a hitters park from a pitchers park, and Pineda could have a softmore slump.
I would definitely argue that in terms of talent, my equations would be proven to be true.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
I would expect them to be
Since it’s not a very high bar to clear in terms of who they are replacing. But the point is, we really have no ide how good McGowan will be. And we need to see how the league will or will not catch on to Alvarez. I’m cautiously optimistic, with emphasis on the cautiously part
I agree, they are "ifs" as mugisha puts it
But if they don’t get an opportunity to pitch, I don’t see how those questions can be answered, and they definitely have the upside to become very good starting pitchers for this team.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, by all means
Give them the opportunity, I am certainly 100% in favour of that. And they certainly have the upside. I just don’t want to expect too much out of them.
So what if the Yankees improved their rotation and we didn't?
Since when are we going move for move with the Yankees? One team is trying to win now and the other is trying to win in a couple of years. Not really comparable
Have to consider the price
First, the Jays don’t have a Montero, though I’d argue TDA isn’t far behind in terms of prospect rankings.
Second, the price for starting pitching has been very, very steep
His point is that the Yankees didn't do that last year
They picked up scraps and were fortunate it worked out for them, scraps that I would not take over McGowan, Cecil, or Drabek (who most likely will not be in the rotation, since Alvarez is going to be there).
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
I am talking about this year
There scraps out performed McGowan Cecil and Drabek last year.
who would have seen that coming?
Drabek was a top prospect. Cecil was coming off an season in which he was an average MLB pitcher at 24 in the AL East. and McGowan didn’t pitch, so he’s moot
Thats why you cant too excited about prospects
For every prospect who becomes a solid starter there are 3 or 4 mark priors.
Yeah
The same one who was provejected as a HOFer, but managed about 40 wins in his career.
Regardless
Most prospects don’t even deliver the value Prior did. Sure the way his career developed was terribly disappointing, but objectively, he gave them some stellar years at the major league minimum.
Obviously you just want to argue
since I said that it worked out for them, but at the time, it was not seen as a move that would work as well as it did, and after CC, their rotation was seen as absolutely horrible.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
I am just trying to point out that we have a very weak starting rotation
I wish we had addressed this like the Yankees did yesterday.
Yes
there were only 5 or 6 teams whose starters ERA was worse then ours. If Morrow can be consistent, then we may have an average rotation.
well
considering his peripherals and DIPS-stats (which have been shown to correlate with future ERA better than past ERA does), Morrow is likely to improve his ERA going forward. That alone would bring the Jays close to league-average in starters’ ERA. Add in a whole season of Alvarez compared to Reyes plus Cecil probably (hopefully?) being better than 2011, and we should be in line for some improvement.
You can argue that there’s something special about Morrow that makes him unlikely to follow his DIPS stats, but I’m not willing to give up on him yet. I think he’s more likely to start matching his DIPS than to not do so.
I like Morrow
His 17 K 1-hitter was magical. Its just baffling at how inconsistent he is. I heard that he is a type 1 diabetic and I wonder if this may have something to do with it.
In then past couple of years our starters have failed miserably in key match-ups against the AL east. Not sure of the dates, but the Jays got hammered by the Red Sox at home. 2 of the games were by more then 10 runs and we were swept. That was one of the turning points in the season. We just dont have the rotation to compete. But I hope that changes this year.
It was early June
And an awful series. But it wasn’t a turning point at all really…the Jays were basically a .500 team all season. It wasn’t like we were doing really well before then and tanked afterwards.
Ok
Problem is that we normally win 1 out of 3 when we go into the sox, yankees or rays stadium.Doesnt seem like we are capable of stringing together more then a 5 or 6 game winning streak. Where the Rays, Yankees etc put together 9 and 10 game winning streaks. Much of the problem is an inconsistent starting staff.
Can we get this thread longer?
and thinner?
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 14, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
It is keeping up the Joneses
If you’re making moves just because your competitors are making moves. Think of the CEO who makes a stupid acquisition just because his competitors have.
Sure, at some point we’ll need to fill holes and over pay some. But in that case, you’re not doing it because of a move some else made, you’re doing it to fill your own roster hole.
Overreacting to what the Yankees, Red Sox, etc to is a bad idea
Right. I wasn’t talking about making moves simply because the other teams have made moves. I was talking about trades which indeed fill holes on the team, specifically as regards the rotation. And, as AA said, I was not talking about making moves to pick up mid-rotation starters — I was talking about #1-2 pitchers. Yes, it’s true that the Jays have a good number of promising pitchers in the minors. Your (plural) argument is that we should wait to see if one or more of them appears to be able to fill the spot. That’s reasonable, but it’s also reasonable to consider a trade for a genuine #1-2 pitcher. Perhaps AA tried, we don’t know.
Agree with DavidLondon
I mean, do we want to get back at the top of the AL EAST ever again?
How much hype did the Yu Darvish rumors generate in TO? It was crazy! And for what? People think the Blue Jays are cheap and unwilling to spend the big $, and just a rumor about landing Darvish was enough to make some of us think that maybe, just maybe they Blue Jays intended to really compete in 2012. So if they’re not willing to spend the big $, at least be willing to gamble and get a top tier starter, like Garza.
Let’s go AA!
Also, you have prospcts
by Marcos Montenegro on Jan 14, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Sigh
THE JAYS AS THEY ARE RIGHT NOW ARE NOT CONTENDING FOR THE AL EAST TITLE IN 2012!!!!
I’d put that in 500pt FONT if I could.
I WANT TORONTO TO WIN TOO, but panicking over the Yanks moves because of some unsubstantiated idea that the Jays are “competitive this year” isn’t going to help. Hey, if the Jays surprise and end up in the Playoffs I’ll be very happy, but it is quite unlikely at this moment.
I don’t blame Boston or Rays fans for being upset about these deals because they’re at that competitive point. Their teams are experienced and good (even Boston.) The Jays are not.
This team needs to develop as a team and the MLB ready guys have to show what they’ve got before the Jays can take that next step.
Many a team blew up some or all of their long term success to make a splash because of some fatuous idea they were “contenders.” See the Baltimore Orioles 1997-2011. KC 2004. Chicago White Sox 2011. Chicago Cubs 98-2011. LA Dodgers (McCourt era) Seattle Mariners 2010 (#6 Org!) Houston Astros 07-10. Mets 07-09.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 14, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
What I really like is how people expect Anthopoulos to take an organization with mediocre major league talent and very weak farm system
and, now that 2 years have passed, make them a contender in the AL East. It’s hilarious.
Give him another year or two.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Yes prospects are currency for MLB talent
But that is based on the assumption that the Jays are close to contending for a WS. The Jays ARE NOT close… yet.
1) AA was in on Latos. Cincinnati beat Toronto for him by blowing out their farm system to get him.
2) He bid on Darvish but Texas blew everyone away.
3) He inquired about Garza, but the Cubs are asking for the moon and probably the sun.
AA wants pitching at his price. Thanks to the new CBA, hoarding prospects and restocking farm is a lot more difficult so they’ve become even more valuable.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 14, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
AA has come in second place at least twice
in bidding for potential top-of-the-line starters. We are told that the Jays submitted the second-highest bid for Yu Darvish and were pitching hard for Mat Latos, but ultimately the Padres decided to go with the Reds’ package over what the Jays were offering. The Jays were also supposedly players for Gio Gonzalez.
I think there is good evidence (at least anecdotal) that AA has been trying to acquire a top-of-the-line, young, controlled starter this offseason, he has just been beaten out by other teams who were willing to spend more than he was. That’s not a lack of trying, it’s a lack of willingness to pay more than his perceived fair value for the player in question.
You can argue that AA undervalued Latos or Darvish and so should have bid more for them, but we have good reason to believe that he has been trying, and has been quite close to succedding, to improve the rotation this off-season.
In the meantime, he seems to have improved the bullpen significantly, which should bolster another weak spot from last year. It’s not about “improve the starters or bust,” it’s about improving the team in the most effective way within a team’s given consraints.
Nicely said
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. -John Kenneth Galbraith, economist (1908-2006)
Only a bustof you expected a big step forward
I think next year is shaping up to be a consolidation year…see if Rasmus rebounds, understand what Brett Lawrie brings to the table over a full season, see which youngMLB pitchers rebounds, have the minor leaguers get another year of experience. See if Adam Lind can be a MLB first basemen, even in a platton situation (crosses fingers)
I think 2012/13 offseason will be the big moving time.
Also
The past 2 years he has acquired Escobar and Rasmus to fill the holes at SS and CF in season, and promoted Lawrie, JPA, and Alvarez to fill holes at 3B, SP, and C. What is next for next year’s mid-season improvement? 2B? LF? 1B? even better C? Another SP or 2? This is something I am definitely looking forward to this coming season (as well as what you mention above about seeing some of the other moves come to fruition / determine where we are at with them).
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
hopefully we won't need to find an external LF
and I’d be okay with KJ for a couple years at 2B. we have a potentially better C in TDA and a huge group of good, young pitching moving quickly through the Minors as we speak. 1B is the only position I think will have to be filled externally
Sorry, that list was meant as both internal (through promotions) and external (trades)
I didn’t make that too clear though.
Even 1B could be an internal upgrade if one of Snider/Thames makes it, and Gose is ready to Lawrie it up in August (in his own way of course), with Bautista moving to 1B starting next year (here’s hoping!).
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'd bet strongly against Gose coming up anytime soon
At least for more than a handful of September ABs. There’s no sense in rushing him, especially as we have a decent defensive CF in Rasmus and Bautista is not a major defensive liabilitiy (and I’m not sure he’d be happy about moving to 1B at this point).
I would not be shocked by an August call-up
But agreed that he will most likely be a September call-up with an opportunity to win a starting job for 2013.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
He needs to improve the hit tool, big time
He’s only 21, so he’s plenty young. Even if he spends 2 years in Triple A working on it, I’m fine with that. At the end of the day, he needs playing time, not to come up and struggle because he’s not ready.
His floor is relatively high because of his tools, but he won’t be very useful or even average as long as the swing and approach aren’t improved. So some Sept ABs make sense, since there’s no other season on going, but other than that…now maybe everything will be together very quickly. We’ll see, but I’m skeptical
you don't think Gose could be Austin Jackson
even if he Ks a lot? it’s definitely not his “floor” per se, but with only a little bit of development that could be him: maybe a little more power and lower BA
97 wRC+ career on the back of a .369 BABIP
I guess I don’t see Gose as capable of that kind of BABIP right now with his hit tool, and without that you’re looking at a significantly below average offensive player.
In terms of an outcome, I’d be thrilled if ended up with a 90 wRC+, more power but less average, better walk ability and elite defense…that’s a 3-4 WAR player
I really hate career minor league BABIP
or stats in general. Same with ML career numbers, they need to be weighted to have any real meaning (even more so for minor league numbers).
He had a 124wRC+ last year at essentially the same level and age as Lawrie had in 2010. That for me is cause for some serious optimism.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
errr ... Lawrie had a 117wRC+ that year, in case that wasn't clear
Note that I am not saying to completely dismiss previous minor league performances. I do think there are valid concerns about Gose’s approach, and one good year does not get rid of them.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
Benk was asking me to compare Jackson and Gose. I’m talking about Jackson’s MLB BABIP and wRC+, not any minor league numbers. My point is, Jackson has put up average offensive numbers on the back of a massive BABIP, which requires making a lot of contact…which is Gose’s main problem.
Lawrie and Gose are completely different players…Lawrie’s prospect status was driven by his bat, it was a question of where he would end up defensively which affected his value.
Gose was a prospect on the basis of his “defensive” tools – run, arm, glove. The bat is the question.
As for comparing the two, Lawrie had a downyear in 2010, and Gose spent 2011 hittinghalf the time at New Hampshire, a very favourable environment for him (lefty at that park).
I think a lot of Gose…I think he’ll develop enough to be a fringey starting CF at worst, and there’s a hell of a lot of upside, which is cause enough to be optimistic generally. The reality is though, that it’s very difficult to improve a player’s ability to make contact, and his approach at the plate. That’s why I’m skeptical of the ability to make big improvement, but it’s still far betterthan having Brett Wallace
I think if his defence is as good as it is being toted
then he can be getting his reps in at the ML level even if he is a bit below average offensively. With that said, I do not disagree with you that he may play around 2 seasons at AAA, I just think I am a bit more optimistic about his hit tool right now then you are.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I'm generally a pessimist
So that’s not a stretch of the imagination by any measure. I hope for improvement of the hit tool, but don’t expect much
I'm reasonably sure
that KJ will be gone by this time next year. In fact, I’m pretty sure if he has a decent year he’s trade bait at midseason unless we’re unexpectedly contending.
The next hole to fill is 2B long-term, unless the plan is to move Escobar at some point, but then you need another SS (let’s not relitigate Hech atthis point, but I’m talking about someone who can hit a little more)
Nope
But I’m reasonably sure AA has a pretty good list somewhere.THe thing about 2B is, there’s a lot of possibilities since most 2B are failed defensive SS (usually due to arm problems).
See, this is what I am talking about. The Jays have a number of holes in their lineup. Not all can be filled from the minors. And we can’t count on opportunistic acquisitions in general. AA will have to make trades to fill these holes, and the trades will have to involve prospects. Now, the argument you guys have implicitly been making is that we need to take this coming year to evaluate exactly where the holes are, and so no big trades should have been made this off-season. Fair enough. But the time is coming…
All evidence is that AA will probably fill a hole for this team
His first off-season was the only time he didn’t fill a hole I think:
- First mid-season: Filled SS (Escobar)
- Second off-season: Filled 3B (Lawrie))
- Second mid-season: Filled CF (Rasmus)
- Third off-season: Filled Closer (Santos)
Continuing with this trend …
- Third mid-season: Fills 2B?
- Third off-season: Fills 1B?
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent points, guys. This does summarize well the improvements that AA has made (and it also summarizes the lamentable situation he inherited). And it does give cause for optimism, although the question of timing is always present (e.g. Bautista’s aging).
he didn't have much of a farm system, it's true
but two years before AA arrived the team did have a 93-win Pythag
Not really
They massively overperformed in the first 7 weeks, like Cleveland did this year, then came back to Earth hard.
It was fun while it last though, and they were a decent team
Didn't mean that as a question
I mean, they weren’t good that year. How were they a 93-win pythag team (unless he meant 2010, the team’s performance his first year as GM).
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe the Reds will majorly suck
And that Canadian guy, whose name I won’t mention at the risk of being bashed, could become somewhat available?
/wishful thinking
That would be an epic sell off
If Votto’s getting moved, I imagine Phillips, Madson, etc would be too
IS there ever bashing on this site?
Seems pretty safe to me.
JOEY VOTTO!
See nothing happened.
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 14, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
This might get flamed
But I really think Brian Cashman is the best GM in baseball.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 12:51 PM EST reply actions
It's almost impossible to explain myself.
But I guess it’s because he built a great farm system, while signing big free agents, and then not over-selling his prospects to acquire talent.
I mean, it’s made considerably easier with the budget he’s permitted, but I think he’s genuinely great at evaluating his needs and filling them with great moves.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't call that farm system great by any stretch
while it’s far from terrible.
the Teixeira deal looks awful, for one thing. I don’t think Cashman is a bad GM per se, but he’s able to cover up his mistakes pretty darn easily
Yeah, fair enough
The Texeira deal and the A-Rod extension will hurt. The Jeter deal wasn’t really his fault. He didn’t want to sign the extension, but I think he had to. Same with Soriano.
It’s these shrewd moves for players like Pineda and Kruoda though that make him pretty darn good at his job.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, the Kuroda signing is nice
and the Pineda deal probably helps them, but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk. I can’t really see any way he could be called the best GM in baseball – with his budget, he’d basically need a 130-win team year in and year out to qualify for that title
I guess
But I mean, that’s just so impossible. They nearly make the playoffs every year. They’ve made it to three World Series in the last 10 years and won one of them.
Pretty remarkable stuff, and I know they have a massive payroll, but so did the Tigers the last three years, and they didn’t exactly light the world on fire.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Tigers payroll has been $80-$100M less than Yankees' past few years
and I was mostly being facetious with the 130 wins thing, but like… do you think most other GMs wouldn’t win 95 games a season with a $210M payroll?
Maybe it's naive of me to think so, but yes.
There’s a ton of bad GMs out there who would throw money away. And while Cashman has, kind of done that, he’s also given out some shrewd deals.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Handshake agreement.
We’ll ink the contract later.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
before Montero trade
Sickels has 9 B- or above. that’s not bad, no doubt, but “great”? I’ll have to disagree
I would be very willing to argue that point
I would say around middle of the pack with Montero, maybe top 10. Going from Montero to Campos probably just drops them a few spots, so top 15, and I think that’s being generous.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
No it wasn't and isn't not even close
It was slightly above middle of the pack, and it’s not below middle of the pack
by MjwW on Jan 14, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Best GM?
I mean, I think he’s very good. But he has given away way too many bad contracts to be considered the best, simply based on his track record. He has done very good job building ML talent through their minor league system, but has also been able to cover up bad mistakes by throwing money at the problem. I mean, they are going to be paying Burnett 33M over the next 2 years to possibly not even pitch. Most GM’s would be absolutely hosed if they were in that position.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
He’s done a good job, especially given the monster expectations. However, here’s nowhere near what Andrew Friedma has done in Tampa – building a consistently competitive team in a 40-60M payroll when your chief competitors are 3 and 4 times that is far more remarkable.
Friedma(n) is the best...
…but AA has had a promising start
"Touch ´em all, Joe!"
by jaysfanfromeurope on Jan 14, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
My top 3 includes:
Friedman
AA
Daniels
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
And, yes, AA is a bit of a homer pick, but who cares? =P
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
by Frag on Jan 14, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say they were in order
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Woops forgot about him.
He’s definitely the best.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Is it a forgone conclusion that we can finish no better then 4th place now?
/sad face.
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 14, 2012 2:19 PM EST reply actions
Yahoo
Another great season to look forward to.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I think it'll still be a fun season
Seeing Lawrie, the rotation, Rasmus, JPA’s sophmore season etc. There’s a lot to look forward to. At least for the first couple of months, and then hopefully some other prospects start making their way up?
Trying to find the silver lining
Yeah
I’m just tired of having the same feeling Royals fans have.
Stuff like “Well, at least we can look forward to watching Hosmer maturing.”
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Not a good parallel
Royals have lost 85+ games more times than not over the last decade.
The Jays have had a couple of awful seasons, a couple of very good seasons, and the rest around .500
Hyperbole.
I acknowledge that. It was me being down again.
Just for me, please AA, do something. I’ll still go to the games. I will just be really sad.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
There's still 5 weeks to training camp
Time to make moves. Wouldn’t count on anything, but at this time last year we still had Vernon Wells (just sayin’)
True.
I just entered this off-season with way higher hopes then I should have.
That’s why this just seems terrible. High hopes dashed, but I built up pretty impossible expectations.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Bingo
It’s an expectations game. I kept my expecatations low…just low enough to barely, barely miss being down about losing the Darvishpalooza.
which is silly
the Red Sox still has team equally as strong as the Yanks, or close anyways
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Exactly
And I don’t think it’s a silver lining – it’s going to be a very exciting team, which is why you watch. Playoffs would be great, but it’snot like we’re watching a team that’s going to lose 90 games
True.
But if we’re waiting for fans to come out to games, the casual fans, so we can pursue talented free agents, this kind of off-season isn’t going to help that at all.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 14, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
EVERYONE!
TO THE LIFEBOATS!
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 14, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think so
I think the Jays will compete with the Rays for 3rd.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
No way....have you seen the Ray's rotation??
by Marcos Montenegro on Jan 14, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Top 5, easily
But out offense was 6th last year and there’s a lot of built in improvements. So we could be a top-5 offense. Our pitching could be around average, and Rays offense could be around average.
I’d bet on the Rays, certainly. But it’s not out of the question. Also, for most of last year, we weren’t that far away from Tampa…our fortunes diverged around mid-August when they really took off
Tampa had 91 wins, we had 81
So we finished 10 games behind them.
On August 18, Tampa was 66-56 and we were 64-60, 3 games behind them.
Tampa finished 25-15, we fininshed 17-21. I rest my case
I'm not sure it's crazy to dream of a 10 win improvement over last year
2 wins from full year Lawrie at 3B
3 wins from full year Rasmus in CF
3 wins from full year Johnson at 2B
2 wins from bullpen improvements
1 win from no Jo-Jo Reyes
and maybe 1 win from Lind being not-replacement level and/or 1 win from Cecil being good again?
Obviously things have to bounce right, but that’s up to a 13 win improvement. It probably won’t happen that way, but is it crazy to think that it could/might?
Lawrie won't be a 2 win improvement
he himself was 2.7 WAR in 2011 and Bautista was good too, though Nix and Woodward weren’t. 1 win upgrade unless he is the second coming, which is possible
plus Romero regression, Bautista regression
and both 3 win CF and LF upgrades are optimistic, IMO. I can see Rasmus being a 3 win player more than KJ, but I think both are more likely to be around 2 to 2.5
2 wins for Rasmus is a 3 win improvement in CF
Our CFers combined for -0.9fWAR last year. Agree with most your points … 8 WAR improvement is probably more realistic
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
8 is still pretty aggressiveas an expectation
That would put as at 89 wins heading into next year, and if that were actually the case, I’d argue the Jays should have been much more aggressive about adding pieces to try and push over 90 wins into the playoffs.
I think it was benk who said this team had a pythag results of ~79 wins last year
So +8 wins puts them at 87 wins, which I think is pretty accurate based on the improvements that have been made.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
OK, fair enough
Again though, if thats the case, you add Fielder and that’s +3 or 4, add a veteran pitcher for +1 or 2 and you’re a 92 win team…I think we’re fruther away than that. I’d say 83-85 myself
No
But you’re also not considering any regression from Romero, Buatista ,etc
But if you think of the improvement as a distribution, 13 would be on the very high end, just as a negative improvement would be on the very low end. I’d centre it around a net improvement of around 4 or 5 wins
"Romero regression"
Can someone explain that to me? Not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, I really don’t understand. He’s put up 2.8-4.1-2.9 fWAR in ‘09, ’10, and ’11 respectively. What is there to suggest he’ll be below a 3 win pitcher next year?
I think it is based on rWAR
which had him around +5WAR. I seriously doubt Romero is worth less than 3 fWAR next year.
Also, in terms of results (i.e. runs scored against), he is probably going to regress a bit. Though you are right, if your numbers are based on fWAR, then there should be no regression expected.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, just checked BR
Usually I check fangraphs. If you’re using rWAR that’s a reasonable assumption, they actually had him close to 6 (5.9). Didn’t expect it to be that high
Err, scratch that
Is it due to rWAR? I never realized how drastically different it was, at least in Romero’s case. Or maybe I’m looking at the wrong numbers
Perhaps I worded it incorrectly
In Romero’s case, it’s not so much regression (though there is some chance he’s not as good)…but also the risk of injury which would mean he wouldn’t put up as much production. So overall, the expectation for me would be less than last year
I think 4-5 is way too low
If you figure everything else evens out (positive and negative regression) and go with conservative estimates for Johnson (2 WAR, +2) Rasmus (2WAR, +2.9) and the bullpen (4WAR, +1.4), that is 6.3 improvement right there.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 14, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think you have to consider injuries and regression as well. Maybe 6 is more reasonable. As I’ve said, I’m a conservative/pessimist type who prefers to set the expectations lower and be positively surprised.
You also have to consider that the bar is higher due to the improvement in the AL. Replacement is calculated by taking total WAR and total wins, and extropolating the replacement level (though Fangraphs, B-R etc just use a consistent number). To a certain extent, the number of wins is fixed within the AL, since there is very little interaction with the NL. A number of AL teams have also got better, which will increase the replacement level in the AL vis a vis the NL. This is convuluted, I’m just saying improving the team may not result in as many wins as we expect due to improved competition as well.
Depends what base
I’m using the actual base last year of 81, not the Pythagorean, though theoretically that’s a better place to start. True talent, 79 wins, I’d add 4 to 6 as a point(ish) estimate
Bautista's true talent is likely 6 wins
Romero 3.5 to 4, depending how bullish you are on him
I don’t see anyone else whose bottom-line performance should regress (negatively) much (obviously, feel free to disagree)
Lawrie should be about a win better than last year
KJ should be 2-3 wins better
Lind should be about the same, probably 2 win upside (wont’ be included in final calculation)
Escobar probably doesn’t change
LF probably about the same, 2 win upside
Rasmus should be 3 win improvement
Morrow should 2 win improvement
Cecil should be better, but not definitely
Alvarez, McGowan, Drabek, maybe Deck/Hutch should be at least a win better than Jo-Jo, Perez, Drabek, Villanueva (potential for much more)
so -4 from negative regression. +9 improvement plus upside for 3-4 more. so yeah, I guess we’re closer to 84 than 86
Right
I would argue though, that there’s a lot of volitility, but it’s very much biased to the upside.
- Cecil can’t be much worse, but can be much better
- Rasmus can scarcely be worse than last year, but in the past has been much better
- JPA probably can;t be much worse
- Got nothing from McGowan last year
- Morrow could put it together
A catastrophic injury to Bautista, Escobar, or Romero are the biggest downside risks, and those are relatively low probabilities
yes, I totally agree
this team winning 88-90 games really wouldn’t be shocking. it’s not likely, but it wouldn’t be crazy
Felix, Pfister, Pineda, Morrow, +
Imagine this rotation… apparently Seattle can’t
My Question
I understand why people are upset, though I don’t agree with it. I believe that the Jays are fine and will be winning WS’sif the world doesn’t end 122112.
But here’s my question/thought. AA has a reputation among the other GM’s. Isn’t it extremely likely that AA puts an offer together for say, Latos, and the Padres love it, then pick up of the phone and say, this is what AA is offering, can you beat it? The. The Reds do, and the Padres call AA back and say. This is what the Reds are offering. Can you beat it? And AA says, no, but I can beat you in a lightsaber battle since I’m clearly skilled in the ways of the force and you’re an idiot for trading Latos for that.
Just saying. This off season could be more about AA being used as leverage to get other teams to pay more. Then this mid-season he swoops in like Boba Fet and takes a stud player off of the hands of the a non-contender.
Boba Fet doesn't swoop.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 14, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I have to take issue with your comment.
If he doesn’t swoop what’s his jet-pack for?
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 14, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Oh he swoops. Ask Han Solo if you don’t believe me.
by FanInJapan on Jan 14, 2012 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bluebird Banter
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Giancarlo Stanton misses the cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
- The Juice: Mesoraco’s grand slam helps Reds complete four-game sweep of Braves
- Please hold: Indians’ Joe Smith jumps the gun on relief appearance
- Local radio host honors Cubs’ Tony Campana with parody song
