Blue Jays to sign Figueroa
Depth I suppose
4 months ago
llello.loves.ace
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Yes
He’s to absorb multiple poundings in Las Vegas, I’d imagine, until the Jays are ready to promote some prospects to AAA mid-season.
Agreed
But the problem is that the Jays have so many young and good pitchers that will need to move up the system, they might have to promote those arms in AA who don’t yet have a spot with the big club to AAA to make room for those high A pitchers who deserve promoting to AA.
Also you might have pitchers who follow the Drabek path: promote to the big club from AA, struggle, demote to AAA.
On the latter point – sure, that could happen.
But there should be plenty of room in New Hampshire for next season. Hutchison, McGuire, Jenkins, and Wojo figure to be in their rotation. That leaves a spot. There’s really no one else pushing from Dunedin – maybe Ryan Tepera, but other than that it would have to be someone who really makes a jump across multiple levels like Hutchison did last year – and he spent half a year in low-A in 2010.
Ryan Tepera is not pushing anyone
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
I mean pushing up from Dunedin
To fill the last spot in New Hampshire, not pushing someone else out of the rotation.
yeah
I’d say Syndergaard and Nicolino have a chance to end up there, but it’s highly likely one of those first four won’t be there by the time the young(er) guns are pushing
Doubt it
They just hit low-A at the end of the year. They’ll start in Low-A, but it’s a bigger push than even what Hutchison made
Right, just barely
What I’m saying is, at the tail end of last year, they both got promoted to low-A Lansing for a couple starts. As did Aaron Sanchez (playoff starts). So they’ll start there next year presumably. The next step is High-A Dunedin, then AA New Hamshire.
But contrast, Drew Hutchison pitched half a season in Lansing in 2010, then started there again in 2011 and ptched half a season. Then he got promoted and pitched 2 months in High-A before get bumped to AA for a couple starts right at the end. So if Hutchison’s promotion schedule was aggressive (and he was considered more advanced, kinda like Nicolino, whereas Syndergaard and Sanchez are more raw), then you’d have to have Syndergarrd or Nicolino promoted more aggressively to hit AA next season. Which I doubt in both cases, and strongly doubt in Syndergaard’s case.
Obligatory
PLAYOFFS!!1
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 19, 2012 2:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
$650K on depth!!
Rogers, spend some REAL money!
@VagabondBansal
According to his Baseball Reference profile page
The pitcher he is most similar to is… Ryan Vogelsong.
And also:
MVP in both the Eastern Hemisphere (2007 Taiwan CBPL World Series) and the Western Hemisphere (2009 Caribe Series) and the first Mets pitcher to throw a complete game shutout at Citi Field (October 4, 2009).
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
So what you're saying is Figueroa will have a 2011 Ryan Vogelsong type season this year?
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!
"Touch ´em all, Joe!"
by jaysfanfromeurope on Jan 19, 2012 3:30 PM EST reply actions
I think the Jaye are just acting pre-emptively
Last year, their pitching in Vegas got so worn about by being pummelled (so plenty of usage) and some injuries that by July/August they had to sign Kyle Davies and a few other guys to fill innings for a few months. Jason Lane (an outfielder) was being used as a middle reliever once a week, often going 3 to 4 innings in blowouts – that’s how bad it was.
So, I imagine they’re just stocking up the arms to avoid that happening again this year. Especially since the player development contract is up, and they’ll be trying to find a new affiliate in the International League. You don’t want a reputation for being cheap with your minor league affiliates if you’re trying to convince someone like Buffalo to change t you
by MjwW on Jan 19, 2012 4:09 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Good insight
Isn’t it nice to see Rogers shelling out the big ones?
(Like they always have)…..
by Paul Chicago on Jan 19, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Playoffs!!!
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 19, 2012 6:21 PM EST reply actions
Figueroa is 37
does he satisfy the requirement that the Jays acquire a veteran pitcher?
by SuckaMD on Jan 19, 2012 7:16 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Jesús
One 55-yo veteran pitcher named Figueroa is enough for the Jays….
Pulling away
Long time BJ fan posting for the first time. I’m not feeling good about the fact that every other team in our division has made atleast on substancial acquisition and addresses big needs and we real haven’t focused on the starting pictching we need. I know that making a trade just to say you did is stupid, but sometimes the division requires you to take atleast one popular move maybe walking on the stupid/amazing line.
Let's look at this broad brush stroke.
The NYY did the Kuroda signing and Pineda/Montero deal. So yes, they potentially to their starting pitching but still isn’t close to their pennant winning rotations of the late 90s.
Boston has a creaky rotation unless you picture Aaron Cook, Vincent Padilla and Carlos Silva as a trio cy young “candidates.” They really haven’t. Their big deals for the BP replace Bard and Papelbon.
Tampa Bay signed Carlos Pena and Jose Molina. They really don’t have many holes.
Baltimore signed a lot of Asian pitchers, but considering that Yu Darvish is better than any of them… that’s not really major.
AA tried to trade for Latos and Gonzalez and possibly Garza. The price was way too high.
Out bid by Texas for Darvish.
What move could AA make?
1) That isn’t stupid baseball wise
2) Drains the farm system of top talent
I don’t see any.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 21, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Or
3) A signing that is way better (and affordable) that won’t block anyone from the minors.
Again, none.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 21, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like the idea of Oswalt at 10~13M
he’ll probably be worth it, but I’d rather give the innings to guys who’ll probably be in Toronto past 2012.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Future jays
The only problem with the future pitchers is that if we keep losing when they ggrow and blossom with our innings they are moving on.
McGowan, Morrow, Litsch,Villanueva
All these pitchers signed 1 yr contracts. I’m thinking that if we are playing baseball hoping for a win in six years then if these guys start to perform then trade them for fresh talent. The yankees, Sox, Rays and possibly the orioles soon with the new management might be building teams for then too. So it still comes down to money. The game is who spends the right ( not least) amount of money on the right position players. A starting five for 30 million is going to be the norm.
Romero
Romero’s not in the picture? Morrow is trade bait in my opinion. The best case is the jays get a great year from him and flip him for high AAA talent.
Yes but I also know that your not building a team with arbitration.
Baseball isn’t a 6yr, 5yr or even 3yr game anymore. For that to work we would be preparing a team to beat the yankees of 09. The flaw in this method is this, say we develope a player who in left field becomes an above average talent with a mutilple tools. And in three years he developes into the fifth best leftfielder in the league. Which most teams would take in a heart beat. The teams like the yankees see this progression and go and buy the fourth,third or so on player in the league. Immediatly leapfroging us in talent. We are building a team to compete against an unknown team. But the yankees and boston will rest assured find ways to field a team finacially better than ours and not always but most of the time works. And if one team fails to buy the players to put them over the top then there is another five teams after that waiting in line to match up against our smart planning.
I’m not feeling good about the fact that every other team in our division has made atleast on substancial acquisition and addresses big needs and we real haven’t focused on the starting pictching we need.
I like how, now that the bullpen has been addressed by Anthopoulos, it wasn’t ever part of the “big needs”. That way people can still gripe about how the Jays did nothing to improve.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 21, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Addressed?
How? Darren Oliver is the answer? He could hit the wall this year. If he doesn’t he’s not a big arm in the pen that can shut them down. I think it’s just as likely Oliver has a year like Rauch. Frasor I like the guy but average bullpen arm at best. Santos unproven.I hope I’m wrong but he could combust aswell.
Stats
Stats are what causes people to make low end purchases like these guys. If they fail no one is looking for heads. So this is factored into the equation. Frasor`s numbers have been average the last five years and is predictable. But Santos has very little numbers under his belt to make him valuable on the free agent market. Oliver is another has been average pitcher but come on 41 yrs old tthat has to be a factor as great as last yrs stats.
Stats are what causes people to make low end purchases like these guys
Heaven forbid that teams actually try to get good, cheap players
Frasor`s numbers have been average the last five years and is predictable.yes, he’ll be predictably average and dependable
But Santos has very little numbers under his belt to make him valuable on the free agent market.What
Oliver is another has been average pitcher but come on 41 yrs old tthat has to be a factor as great as last yrs stats.He has actually been pretty fantastic. If he regresses he’ll still be pretty good.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
THere's nothing wrong with trying to get good cheap players
aslong as thats not the only thing you do. Frasors predictable and yes a good player but we had him last year so I’m not thinking of this as an improvement. Oliver has been pretty fantastic but again he’s 41. And not really a long term solution. And I’m just pointing out that if Santos had been a free agent I don’t believe he would have been regarded as a bonified closer worth big money. So it’s hard to say he’s a big upgrade aswell
Why does it matter how he would have been rewarded based on criteria like “proven closer”? What matters is what’s likely to contribute on the field. He’s projected to be significantly above average, he can be a tad wild, but when the slider is on, he’s damn near unhittable. That’s what I want from a closer – swing and miss stuff, not bona fides.
You’ve consistently brought up Oliver’s age, as it the fact that he’s 4 means he’s useless. Pitchers age – we would expect him to be a little less effective than last year. It’s possible he completely falls apart, but unlikely. We only have him for one year, he’s a nice piece.
I agree he's a nice piece.
Just I don’t him or any of the moves this year equaling to added wins on the field. Just my opinion. I do see Pineda, or if the red sox adding Oswalt adding wins for them. I hope not but if the oriles are in on fielder then I don’t see this off season as one where we atleast maintained competitiveness within our division.
honestly?
you actually don’t think Sergio Santos over Frank Francisco will result in a SINGLE added win for the Toronto Blue Jays?
I hope so but I believe Frant Francisco had better tools the Santos.
I hope he ends up light it up and saving 35 games this year, but I’m taking a wait and see stance on him mostly because I’ve seen very little of him. I’ve read that his fastball is a little too straight and that he can get rattled. Not what I want to read about when looking for a closer.
Pitch f/x says Santos' fastball has pretty similar movement to Francisco's
it doesn’t rise as much, but it’s also faster (by more than a mile on average)
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I'm not trying to disprove your point or anything
but his numbers (particularly his BB%) start to get alarmingly bad as leverage increases / men get on base
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Santos' only pitched 3+ years
That’s a mistake a lot of “rookie” pitchers… trying to be too fine instead of trusting one’s stuff.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
adding players
How could the BJ with the farm system they had not been a real contender in the Pineda trade? Boston still is a better all around team and is willing to purchase what they need when the season progresses. I think the jays should have been in on pitchers like Joe Saunders or Edwin Jackson. I just don’t see the bullpen being stronger than last year because the players they siign could easily have bad seasons. Oliver has to fall off the wagon sometime, we lost with Frasor in the bullpen and Santo’s is a chance but really unproven.
You bring up so many interesting points
but I stopped reading after “should have been in on pitchers like Joe Saunders”
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Joe Saunders
I’d put this guy in the number four spot over Cecil anyday. He’s not dominate but quality innings and a mentor to the other pitchers like Romero and Morrow who need mentoring. Right now we have youngster figuring it out on their own. And I also believe pitchers learn from other pitchers that are presently pitching better than staff.
There you go
Boston, yankees, orioles don`t care if the price for a number 4 is higher paid than all but Romero.
what. are. you. talking. about
Why would you pay Saunders 6M to pitch when Cecil can do it just as well for 450K
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
6 Million
The pay difference makes no difference if it`s not spent on the team. The jays aren`t taking that money and spending it some other places.
I wouldn't
Try to acquire any starters this offseason, unless AA can work one of his miracles. The price is insane, because the supply is so low. I would see what the young guys can do in 2012, and maybe the market will be more affordable next offseason.
I'm actually tempted to call him worse
and xFIP and SIERA agrees with that notion
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Edwin Jackson
What about him I did mention him too.
yes you did
and I didn’t refute that at all, because Jackson would be pretty good.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Where are you on Jason Marquis
Ì like him for 3m for a number 3 or 4 starter. But minni got him. Why can`t we be in on him.
So is Oliver.
And bullpen innings if own starters work out. But he`s a fill in position that I`d rather see on the mound than Cecil( I like the guy) but he`s gonna shatter if he gets hit hard this year.
41yrs old
You have to take this as a factor. The wheels always fall of the wagon. Even the jays had to take that into account.
each of his last four seasons have been exceptional
obviously there’s a chance of a complete meltdown, but there was the chance each of the last four years too
he might be an average pitcher this year because of his age, sure
but as mentioned, hes a pretty solid reviler, he is above average, expect him to continue to be good until he starts showing signs of his age.
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 21, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Pedigree
Saunders has been on inning teams, he`s got a fresh winning team under his belt and it makes for a confident pitcher. Perception is different when you haven`t been lossing. I`d pay more because his attitude, history and he played against lefties in the NL much more than in the AL and thats his weakness. Still posted a 12 win season. Cecil`s confidence is gone. Thats a head game and his loss of velocity worries me as it could be a physical issue that could end with a year off.
no
Saunders is mediocre, like Cecil. The fact that his team won doesn’t really say anything about his ability to pitch.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Joel Pinero
He`s a low risk pitcher I thinks a good number five, Coln is another guy who brings knowledge and a end of rotation arm. Waiting for Alveraz to develope isn`t going to happen this year.
Yes, I think the Pineiro signing was great by the Philllies
Colon is pretty mediocre
I have no idea where you get this:
Waiting for Alveraz to develope isn`t going to happen this year.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Mostly opinion from watching him in AAA last yr and at the rogers center.
Just figuring if heès in the long term plans itès going to be long term.
he was nothing short of outstanding in 2011
I’ve seen nothing to indicate he can’t be at least an okay starter, if not an average-plus starter in 2012 and beyond
Do you know who Henderson Alvarez?
Maybe you are confusing him with Drabek? Alvarez had an absolutely amazing year last year at every level he pitched. Also, he never pitched an inning in AAA all year.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 21, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry AA, And yes he did well I wouldn't say amazing for the majors
He played great but players usually take two year to adapt to the everyday shedule of MLB and matching up against players etc. Drabek is another case where you can see when a player is pushed to fast.
Amazing might be a tad hyperbolic
But for a 21 year old with half a season about High-A, he did very well. About as good as what one could reasonably expect.
Orioles
I`m just saying if own plan is a long term one it`s also going to include the Orioles as a serious competitor.
I seriously hope you're kidding
The O’s are in terrible shape, and their best prospects are at least 2~3 years away
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
But we are looking at 6 yrs right. ANd they have management that will over pay
I`m not a big fan of overpaying but I understand that certain markets have to suck it up to make a move.
they do?
Name one move by the Orioles (that actually made them better) in which they overpaid
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
They havenèt yet but just because last yr was the first step
Front office retooling is what happened last yr. Rumors are the orioles are in on Fielder. This would be my point in a perfect fact if they get him. You know they are going to over pay but it will add to the team for sure.
that would be such a horrible signing for them
paying all that money when their marginal value of wins is so low? OriLOLs to the nth degree
I wouldn't count on the Orioles being that competitive for a while
At least until the owner stops meddling (like that’s going to happen) and getting in managements way.
O.k turn the table. Name your free angent pickup we missed. ( or really should have gone for)
Sometimes overpaying so our division doesn`t get stronger is more important than a good value.
Beltran
Would’ve loved Pineiro on a minor league deal
Other than that, I don’t see much.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I agree with Pineiro
With Beltran, I’m split. He’s put up consistently great numbers over the last few years, but he is older and injury prone. He’s a switch hitter, but would be taking ABs away from Snider/Thames. I wouldn’t have wanted him on anything more than a one year-plus option deal. And I know a lot of free agents stars don’t take too kindly to option years.
Beltran would have been great.
I guess that it`s easy to ignore the field when the pitching issues in my opinion are more apparent. Snider is in trouble and I think the jays have to own atleast 50% of that with the up and down. Beltran would have supported the offence nicely. But with limited funds I`d buy an arm.
I like that Jays aren’t exactly good enough to compete with or without him in 2012 so I don’t see the need
This is an attitude that our front office has. Wère losing before we hit the field.
Jackson
Would be a sign that the wild card is a goal if we lock him in for three yrs. Not far behind last yr and if they did that Ièd say o.k the bullpen additions compliment the staff nicely.
why do we need a sign
I also think Jackson is likely to get a 4-5 year deal, which I think is too many for a guy like him (though it’d be nice to have him, he’s a good pitcher)
We need a sign because the yankees, boston , rangers, angels
They all show the fan base hey we’re here now. Not 4yr years from now.
we're not here now
we’re not good enough to compete. when we start winning, fans will come. making some stupid “show-me” move will only hurt the team – and thus, attendance – in the long run
by benk on Jan 21, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think a purchase like Jackson would be a show me move.
It’s not like BJ Ryan or AJ money. I would want something like that. I’d like to see a step move not a jump move. I agree guys like Oswalt wouldn’t make financial sense.
BJ Ryan money = 47M/5 years
AJ Burnett money = 55M/5 years
Edwin Jackson money is likely to be 10-12M per year over 3-5 years. On the high end, that’s Burnett money, in the medium range. But that’s not even the problem.
The problem is that, on average, free agent pitching contracts go terribly for the team. I have a Fanpost on this, take a look.
Give him a 4-5yr deal
Guys can be moved even if it’s a 5 million loss(Teahan) for the last two yrs.
So what about Teahan? Was that terrible managing?
Because we just did it.
We didn't give Teahen his contract
We acquired it from Chicago in lieu of giving up additional talent to get a trade piece (Edwin Jackson) that we needed. No Mark Teahen, and we would have had to give Chicago more talent.
Teahen’s contract was sunk cost, plain and simple.
by MjwW on Jan 21, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
So your saying an unproven talent
Which would have been less valuable than Zach Stewart who was the trade piece is work more than 5 million?
Who is this unproven talent you're talking about
Teahen? Teahen costs 5M because Chicago made a stupid commitment
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Just saying if we didn't get teahan
We would have given up an unproven minor league talent because Zach Stewart was the figure trade piece. So it comes down to this. Take teahan and loss 5million or give up another minor leaguer.
You don't know that
You don’t know it was only another minor leaguer. Other teams wanted Jackson – maybe clearing Teahen’s salary was a major plus for Chicago.
And it was actually closer to 7M for Teahen between 2 months of 2011 salary and $5.5 for 2012
Still another couple minor leaguers
Maybe we could have signed and traded Figueroa and then traded him to the white sox. That would be a notable sign and trade just like it is here.
Huh?
What does Figueroa have to do with Teahen, at all?
What do you mean by a notable sign-and-trade, “just like it is here”. Sign-and-trades happen in basketball, but rarely if ever in baseball because the rules around signings are completely different. And what do you mean by just like it is here?
Sarcastism remark
I was making fun of the posting that signing Figueroa was news worthy. I was just making fun of the post. i just feel that the teahan side of the deal MIGHT have cost us 5 million in wasted dollars where we could have offered a minor league prospect instead of taking the teahan contract and made out better in the end.
i just feel that the teahan side of the deal MIGHT have cost us 5 million in wasted dollars where we could have offered a minor league prospect instead of taking the teahan contract and made out better in the end.
You’re assuming the White Sox would have taken that
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
and you're assuming they might not have
and that the sky is blue! grass is green!
He is just speculating, i think that’s pretty clear.
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 22, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
well it's not really logical
if the Jays believed that offering prospect that’s worth less than what Teahen would have cost would have completed the deal, I don’t see why they wouldn’t have done it. Also, getting rid of Teahen fits with what the ChiSox are now trying to accomplish: cutting salary.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
so then say that, explain what you are thinking not just shoot it down =)
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 22, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah I'm assuming. The White Sox are dumping and your right might not
of wanted a player just a salary dump.
Ok basic explanation
Just pretend the Blue Jays traded Zach Stewart and 7 million dollars to the Sox in return for Jackson. Would the Sox rather take 7 million dollars or an “unproven prospect”(the word prospect implies that they are unproven, therefore saying ‘unproven’ prospect is unnecessary) in return. It all depends on how much they value the prospect. So the prospect the Jays would have had to give up would have had to be worth 7 million dollars to the Sox.
Now we know AA values most prospects above money, and is willing to “buy” draft picks in order to land higher quantities of prospects. So I’m sure AA would rather give the Sox 7 million dollars than give up one of his prospects. 7 million dollars is nothing compared to the surplus values prospects are assigned.
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/7/13/1567771/prospect-surplus-value
In order to conform with the surplus values that prospects are assigned, AA could only have offered the Sox a fairly low-level guy, which the Sox would have in no way accepted. So it’s unlikely that this deal could have happened without the salary dump.
What?
Edwin Jackson was the trade piece we got back. We had to give up Zach Stewart to get him. We also took on Teahen’s salary, since Chicago was trying to dump him. If we hadn’t of taken on Teahen, we would have had to give up Zach Stewart + Other Talent to get Edwin Jackson. That other talent might have been minor league, it might have been major league. Of maybe the trade just doesn’t happen.
BTW – could you please make an effort to respond to the comment, rather than starting a new thread (using reply button). It makes the thread very difficult to follow otherwise. and it’s happened about 10 times in this thread
oh you already said it
don’t I look silly
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 21, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
please try and use the reply button more
i see sometimes you do use it, but try and pay a little more attention to it please!! it makes the thread easier to follow
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 21, 2012 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
if you read them its pretty obvious =P
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 21, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
Looks like I missed out on the fun.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 21, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
getting too old to keep up =/
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 21, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
I gotta say this is what I love about this forum.
8 word minor posting can equal interesting conversation with some really good comments.
reply button
PLEASE
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 21, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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