Jays sign Omar Vizquel. Millions Wonder Why?
by Tom Dakers on Jan 23, 2012 7:43 PM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays News
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PrintOk, I have no idea why we would do this, but apparently we have signed 44 year old infielder Omar Vizquel. 44 year old. I can't get it. I usually understand, if not always agree with Alex's moves but I don't get this at all.
Vizquel hit .251/.287/.305 in 58 games with the White Sox last year.
Did I mention he was 44. He'll be 45 in April.
Please Alex, explain this to me.
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well actually I posted the rumor that it was coming then the this that he had signed.
but yeah
I blog, therefore I am.
you spammer
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
McCoy, Valbuena or Vizquel
Who do you want playing when necessary?
by plen on Jan 23, 2012 7:46 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Valbuena then Vizquel
McCoy needs to stay in the minors.
by BrownMagician on Jan 23, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
If he's going to replace anyone, its going to be McCoy or Valbuena
I assume. So, I don’t see how it matters that much
REPLACE VALBUENA?!?!?
A guy who hasn’t even had a shot yet?
by BrownMagician on Jan 23, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Neither did Olivo...
;-p
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking." (J.M Keynes)
Because...
Because.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
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x
LaBlynne Kazuto Yamazaki
Japanese source says Rangers agreed to trade Koji to the Jays. bit.ly/xUwPy8
EVERYTHING'S HAPPENING
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
this is the filthiest bullpen ever
maybe this means the Jays really want to let Carreno and Perez fail as starters?
Not quite sure we're celebrating..
woo?
I am the one who knocks.
by outoforder87 on Jan 23, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
because we have a bullpen that could be really really freaking good :)
and also completely injured :(
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Has anyone checked out to see if Tim Wakefields available?
Maybe Visquel knew AA’s dad and called in a favor.
Wah? Koji?
A lot of Camden Chatters are going to have the sadz
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
...who?
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
...who?
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
yeah great response
you could have provided me with a link or an explanation to trigger my memory >;(
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
But I want the Doc Halladay of relievers..
Darnitt!
I am the one who knocks.
by outoforder87 on Jan 23, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
He's good, but prone to giving up a home run at a bad time.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
doesn't matter though
his league/ballpark/homerun rate adjusted numbers are still fantastic
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
it may not matter at all
if this is just bogus lol
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
WIth a sober sober thought after the initial euphoria of all of these annoucements…don’t know that the Rangers would logically be doing this, though they do have a ton of pitchers. And after the last trade involvingus getting a reliever from Texas, I’m wary of trading with them. Actually, just wary overall. They’re a smart front office
TDA?
Kidding. I swear I’m kidding.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
Can anyone verify this?
I love me some Koji Uehoji!!
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 23, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
If there's one thing I learned from December..
I don’t trust Japanese sources..
Or American sources.
Or even sources.
I’ll wait till AA tells me.
I am the one who knocks.
by outoforder87 on Jan 23, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
anyone else confirming this?
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
When introducing the player in a press conference..
Yes.
I am the one who knocks.
by outoforder87 on Jan 23, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
what?
the Mathis trade was way worse than this move. This ain’t a big deal at all.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
hes just asking why?
hes not saying the sky is falling. lol
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
He's thinking long term obviously..
about the alumni softball game. Alomar/Vizquel combo anyone!? Sure beats Adams/Hill.
I am the one who knocks.
by outoforder87 on Jan 23, 2012 7:50 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
there is a resonable answer
puzzle solved
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Sherlock Holmes ain't got nothing on me.
I am the one who knocks.
by outoforder87 on Jan 23, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
The answer is obvious
If you cannot have John McDonald, then the next best alternative is the guy at whose hands he learned.
In fact, some would say that McDonald was a poor man’s Vizquel, so we are perhaps moving up in the world.
by MjwW on Jan 23, 2012 7:53 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
100% agree
But also, why do people care so much about these minor deals involving nobodys? This is a minor league deal, he may not even end up on the team and if he does, will be a Utility guy at most. Same for Mathis, Mills was a nobody, we needed a guy to catch a couple of games no big deal. It’s not like we’re run like the Angels or White Sox.
by T_Mizz on Jan 24, 2012 9:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh I realize that
But, people’s reactions just seem to be overblown. This is such a minor thing that there’s very little downside, not a ton of upside either, unless they’re right that Escobar and Hechavarria can learn from him.
Holy smokes
Somehow Vizquel has 2,841 hits. Maybe he’s hoping to play 2 more years go get to 3,000?
by craig in calgary on Jan 23, 2012 7:58 PM EST reply actions
Jeff Mathis however
Still 2,777 hits away from 3,000
by craig in calgary on Jan 23, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Well, if Mathis plays 300 years, he'll get 3000 hits
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Only for a joke at Jeff's expense.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
When he trades most of his top prospects for rentals or signs Barry Zito and Aubrey Huff to a megabucks contract
Then it might be a fair comparison
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 23, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
VizquelOmar13 Omar Vizquel
Thhank y so much for your messages. it is confirm. I ll be with the toronto blue jays in spring training this year to earn a spot
yep
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
banned for spam
bwhahaha
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Spring Training mentor for Hech/Escobar.
That’s my call..
by Joey Kirby on Jan 23, 2012 8:15 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
no better infield instructor out there
anywhere! This is a win-win for Vizquel’s tutoring skills alone
If Vizquel makes the active roster
I wonder if him, combined with Oliver and all the really young players, could give us the largest variation of age (as measured by stantard deviations) of Opening Day rosters. Sounds like an interesting research topic (and quick) for a couple months from now
I think his age is his best asset
He will be like a Molina at the 3B/SS/2B side.
Nope, that would be any team featuring Jamie Moyer
Most likely. Or Maybe Tim Wakefield.
by allcanadian34 on Jan 23, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Im sure he'll help
out Lawrie as well, or at least I wouldn’t think he could hurt his fielding :P
Yes this is puzzling
But I feel this is like the Johnny Mac situation. One of the best infielders of all time on one of the younger teams in the league… what does that mean?
In my opinion, he’s the new Johnny Mac on the team to help the young guys grow. Does the team need that right now? I’m not sure, but I think this is the reasoning behind the move.
Can we start the Gose watch yet?
try 'the old johnny mac'
Johnny Mac claims to have learned everything he knows from Mr. Vizquel and I believe him.
Who cares
Really, he is still probably an upgrade on McCoy and Valbuena so I’m happy.
Now if we get Koji as well…and the Morrow signing; good day for the Jays.
Current MLB-ers born after Vizquel's debut
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
by Pikachu on Jan 23, 2012 8:47 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
He’s been playing since I was born. Ridiculous!
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
same
Do you have a young, talented cost controlled player having a down year who's "attitude" has cased problems with an aging player or manager?
Don't worry, I Alex Anthopoulos will take him off your hands, I'll even give you some moderately useful veterans that will "help you make a playoff run".
Get off my lawn, all of you
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
by JaysfanDL on Jan 24, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You have been playing since Frag was born?
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 23, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
Just saw this on twitter:
When Omar Vizquel was first signed by the Mariners in 1984, 16 out of the 40 men on the Blue Jays roster had been born. #jays #mlb
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 23, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
This whole Koji thing would make sense
If they are trying to free up money for prince.
by Chris McC on Jan 23, 2012 8:50 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
They being the rangers
If that was unclear.
by Chris McC on Jan 23, 2012 8:51 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
well that and thry have more starters than they need and can move Ogando to the pen...
The question is the return….
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
Yay I've been wanting to see Vizquel in Toronto since 1995
But seriously I think that this may be a move recommended by the Special Assistant to the Organization, Roberto Alomar, to get an old friend one more shot in the majors before he retires.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
Could be a good move..
If he was brought in to teach lawrie how to play D. Apparently he was a good clubhouse guy, so maybe we have that player-coach that we all thought JohnnyMac would become here
we just doubled our chances
If JMac decides he likes the desert air and stays in Arizona when his playing days are numbered instead of coming back to be our infield coach plus, then we can offer Omar the position.. in the meantime, he makes us better in spring-training and possibly gives McCoy a little bit more sleep and less airmiles during the regular season
MLBInsideNews
MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
Yes, DONE DEAL Koji Uehara is a Toronto #BlueJay
Then it MUST be true!
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
FOR WHAT!!!!!!
Got to be for prospects…
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
????!
Notsureifserious.gif
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
sorry didnt see swaim...
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
haha that guy’s definitely less than reliable
by leaflover4ever on Jan 23, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Not hearing it on MLBTR.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
its there now!
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
I C IT
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
I
C
It
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Synonym: Being excited over an AA offseason
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
by Frag on Jan 23, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
just thought about this.....
Entire rangers FO is in the DR for the rest of the week…
Will this get done this week…
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
starting to look like more then smoke then fire
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
theres an extra word there
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 23, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see any reason why it couldn't
I doubt many trade negotiations are in person.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 23, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
its possible....
But he is not a a piece that has to be moved right away…. Either the Rangers NEEED cash now, or AA is initiating this which would imply it isnot a salary dump
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
In Vizquel's first season
The Berlin Wall was still intact
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Was one of them Exhibition stadium?
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 23, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yes indeed
Played 3 games there. As well as 7 games in Old Comiskey, and 22 in Cleveland Municipal Stadium.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 23, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
When Vizquel was in his first 2-3 seasons when the Soviet Union still existed. #VizquelIsOld
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
If Moyer pitched to Vizquel, would that be the oldest pitcher-hitter duel ever?
And D’Arnaud’s a high price to pay for a reliever, isn’t it? Uehara’s OK but he disintegrated at the end of the season.
From a practical standpoint, yes
from a theoretical standpoint, I don’t know, but I don’t think so.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 23, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Ricky Henderson?
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
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Julio Franco?
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 23, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Matt Damon
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
by Frag on Jan 23, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Best Comment Ever
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
by T.Dot_Bronco on Jan 23, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Omar Vizquel made his professional debut at age 17 with the Butte Copper Kings of the Pioneer League (Rookie) in 1984. Some other major leaguers who also played in that league: Chris Jones, Tim Scott, Jeff Nelson, Wayne Kirby, Darren Holmes. From the Medicine Hat Blue Jays: Rob Ducey, Greg Myers, Dane Johnson.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
Looks like a nice day in Toronto sports
Leafs win
Vizquel signs a MLD with us
Talks of Morrow extension that buys out a year of free agency with a bonus option as well
With the possibility of Koji Uehara
Now just sign Pudge please.
Do you have a young, talented cost controlled player having a down year who's "attitude" has cased problems with an aging player or manager?
Don't worry, I Alex Anthopoulos will take him off your hands, I'll even give you some moderately useful veterans that will "help you make a playoff run".
wana share ;)
oh come on, pleeeeeeassssssssssssssssse
Do you have a young, talented cost controlled player having a down year who's "attitude" has cased problems with an aging player or manager?
Don't worry, I Alex Anthopoulos will take him off your hands, I'll even give you some moderately useful veterans that will "help you make a playoff run".
sorry bro
u think i can afford good tickets? im taggin along with a friend whos got seasons..
but islanders tix aren’t as expensive as leafs, get one for 10 bucks then sneak down and sit with me ;)
I am the Walrus
I had fourth row to a game at the ACC against the Caps.
It was awesommeeee
"And I'm like forget Yuuuuuu"
I guess
Essentially EE, except even worse in the field.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 23, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
They had Mark Reynolds last year
Who was atrocious, so pretty much anything is an upgrade over him defensively. He was worth like -20 runs in something like 100 games at third. Just brutal
Another Vizquel fact
He is just slightly younger than Tom Dakers.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 23, 2012 10:07 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
I like this signing. It’s a minor league deal, which invests about as commitment as a one-night stand. Basically, the Jays are paying for an extra fielding coach for their AAA infield, and the only way he’d see any time in Toronto would be if we’re so injury ridden that we’re already out of the hunt, or we’re just plain out of it and AA makes some moves and needs an infielder to hold down a spot for the last third of the season.
by dexfarkin on Jan 23, 2012 10:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’m not sure Vizquel would accept a minor league assignment.
Follow me @Minor_Leaguer
by Minor Leaguer on Jan 23, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely.
Haha. Posted first, then scrolled up and saw this.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
I like Uehara
but it depends on the cost especially if this is a building year and not a go for it year. Whats the point of giving away assets for releivers now?
What’s his contract status anyway?
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
I really like the Vizquel signing
He could take Valbuena/McCoy’s spot on the team. Player-coach. Veteran presence.
It’s not all about WAR and all that stuff. Really like it alot.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Indeed. This alone is worth the price of admission:
So what are the Blue Jays’ expectations being placed on Vizquel? There are none. He is forced to earn a spot on the major-league roster to be paid major-league money. If he does not make the team out of spring training in Dunedin, he will be released. Meanwhile, at training camp he will stand out at shortstop and take infield every morning with Hechavarria and the mercurial Yunel Escobar and, communicating in their own language, transfer his immense knowledge of baseball and life.
http://thestar.blogs.com/baseball/2012/01/griffin-jays-sign-omar-vizquel-to-minor-league-deal.html
I like it too
Minor league move so no 40 man adjustment. With how little playing time the backup infielder should get this year I’d be fine with Vizquel over Valbuena or McCoy. I don’t think its a pointless move
I know the real reason Alex did this...
He got tired of listening to the complaints that he was being a cheapskate.
37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
Can we sign Koji and Cordero...
then trade Koji, Cordero, Oliver, and Hech for Bill Hamilton at the trade deadline?
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:01 PM EST reply actions
because if you had Billy Hamilton you would trade him for 3 relievers and an underperforming SS prospect
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
It worked for Rasmus.
They need to win the AL Central and Hech would fit better in the NL where defense is valued more. I am not saying its likely but it could happen and would be awesome.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Okay
They need to win the AL Central and Hech would fit better in the NL where defense is valued more.
NL. NL Central. And defense is valued more in the NL? Why?
I’m sure it would be awesome, just like trading Drabek for Matt Moore would be awesome. Doesn’t mean we should waste our breath (or comments, whatever) talking about something that’s very unlikely.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Defense is more valued by the NL because the play lower scoring games or runs are at a premium
You can waste your breath on whatever you want. I didn’t say “Please comment! Please!” I just said what i was thinking.
If you want me to make it more general, my observation is if AA acquires Koji and Cordero like rumors have suggested, it seems like he is gathering pieces to sell later at the deadline.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
False
A run on defense is still the same as a run on offense, so a no bat player still has the same value in the NL as in the AL.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 23, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Also Billy Hamilton isn't even a top 50 prospect yet
He should be that expensive. I just love the idea of him and Gose batting 1-2 in a couple of years.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is
To use the speed on the basepaths, you have to first get on base. And Hamilton’s bat is more questioned by scouts than Gose’s.
And Hamilton’s bat is more questioned by scouts than Gose’s.
Haven’t heard that yet. Aren’t they on similar levels? Hamilton has AVG, Gose has power.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
An 85 MPH Fastball would knock the bat out of Hamilton's hands
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 23, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
no power at all?
I thought he had at least above average ability to make contact
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
He makes the Olsen Twins look like old Jonah Hill
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 23, 2012 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
He had a .082 ISO (1.29 bases per hit) last year, was around the same age as Gose, all while in A ball. He looks like a slap hitter to me.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Fastest guy in the minor leagues
Speed factor of 9.2 last year, which was better than Gose’s 8.6.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
with that speed
he may be able to bunt every AB!
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 24, 2012 8:26 AM EST up reply actions
From what I’ve heard, he has similar issues with the bat that Gose has.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
I can't find his splits but I believe he progressed a lot as the ear went on
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
One could argue he’s way too old for this league.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
by Frag on Jan 23, 2012 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Not to mention how overrated speed in general actually is
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 23, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
After listening to Everyone
maybe three relievers is enough to get him.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Well, to be honest
After another half year or so in AAA, we’ll have more data points on Hech’s bat. If it’s improved, you wouldn;t want to include him for Hamilton. If it’s not, he doesn;t have a ton of value anyway, compared to a guy like Zach Cozart who Cinci already has
Really depends on what you think of his hitting
If he can even get on base at average rates, he’ll be an excellent player. Guys like Kevin Goldstein (well, his scouts actually) think he can, which is why he gave him a 5-star rating. Cincinnati probably values him at a similar cost.
If I had Hamilton, I don’t give him up for Cordero, Oliver, Hech unless I really need relievers. If you add Koji (3 years of control), I might do it.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Looking at KG's lists come out this year
I’ve found I put a lot less weight in them than I did last year, now that I know a lot about the minor league systems (compared to last year). Some of his 5 star rankings are stunningly aggressive to me – Hamilton, Luis Heredia.
some are suspect, yes...
but I think ignoring data when so little is available isn’t the right way to go.
FWIW, Sickels gave Hamilton a B+, which isn’t TOO far from 5 star rating (not that it’s even close to being the same thing)
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I generally agree with Sickels
But I think he was overly agressive on Hamilton, I didn’t understand that one, especially since he initially gave Gose a B (since he’s upgraded him to B+, we can assume Gose is a borderline B/B+, which I agree with). To me Hamilton is either a straight B, or maybe even a borderline B/B- if I thought harder about it
I added all 4 in the original question
I was thinking since odds are CIncy will not be able to extend Votto in 2013 and Phillips in the offseason, they may go for it. They might be in a spot where they are 1 game in/out of the playoffs in July, they may be looking to make a trade to solidify a playoff spot.
These High leverage relievers on 1 year contracts should seem very valuable to a team trying to squeeze out a playoffs spot.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Koji's on a 1 year contract
but he has 3 years of control, so he’s more valuable than the average reliever
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Agreed but i think the others are valuable too because no long term committment
They are like paid mercenaries. You get them for the stretch run on a pro-rated contract and don’t have to worry about them the next year.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Hamilton
Is 1 month younger than Gose, and played 2 levels lower. He had a decent BA, but no power (less than 100 ISO) and has contact issues similar to Gose (52 BB against 133K – and remember, this is for a light-hitting guy, there’s no power)
he is only 6 months older than marisnick and in the same level
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
What's your point?
First, we’re not comparing Marisnick and Hamilton. And if we were, Marisnick was slightly old for the league, but he thoroughly dominated it.
my point was that he doesn't seem that old
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't say he was old for the league
I said (above) he did at an unimpressive ARL (age relative to league). In other words, it’s not a point in his factor or against it. Gose, on the other hands, was very young for his league, so the ARL is a point in his favour
fair enough.
I don’t know a whole lot about Hamilton other than the steals. I more or less think the Reds are gonna be players at the trade deadline and since he is their top prospect, I was curious what others thought about AA pulling off another Rasmus-type trade for hamilton.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 23, 2012 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
OK
It’s a pretty thin system after trading Alonso and Grandal, and since Mesoroco will have lost prospect status by the deadline and is pretty much a building block there – so I can understand Hamilton being the top prospect. I personally prefer Robert Stephenson, but that’s more because I’m not a big believer in Billy Hamilton (at this point, he could change my mind if he improves at Hi-A and above)
On the Rasmus-type trade thing
I have to agree, I’ve been kinda turning this over in my mind as well. We have Janssen, Oliver, Villaneuva and Frasor all on expiring (or potentially expiring contracts). Carreno could fit a Rzep -like fringey starter, valuable reliever. More importantly, we have an Edwin Jackson-type piece in Kelly Johnson, assuming he has a decent year (or better).
My thought are, the Tigers could face a tight battle, they’re built to win now, and have a hole at 2B and could need offesnive upgrade. So my thoughts have turned to something like KJ + a reliever to two and maybe a prospect for Jacob Turner. It’s extremely hypothetical, of course, but that seems like a more logical fit given our potential pieces and a potential need
Oh. I like that. I have heard nothing but things about Turner.
I agree. Acquiring these relievers doesn’t make sense unless 1) we are contending (which most don’t think we can) or 2) we are dumping them for a core piece.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Right, I feel similarly
I wouldn’t go quite as far in saying it doesn’t make sense if they’re not expected to contend (it’s a relatively low cost, low risk insurance policy on exceeding expectations, in that less potentially upgradng later), but that’s quibble. I think the extra playoff spot makes a big difference too – it will mean more potential byer and less potential seeler, all else equal, which increases cost. And of course, now AA has more valuable chips.
The extra playoff also makes a difference in that a lot of teams will be closer to the playoffs in July
so more trade potential trade. The Reds just came to mind because they seem all in. But it could be the Marlins, Rockies, Dodgers, Tigers, Royals, etc. within a game for a playoff spot.
We might be able to snag a prospect from a team that needs bullpen help.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Right, that's what I meant
The NL definitely seems more wide open. We’ll see how things develop, but knowing AA, he’s probably already thinking about possibilities in the back of his mind
Can someone please explain to me the Hamilton love?
Sure, he’s got tons of speed but I think we are seriously overrating speed in general. He can’t get on base, he doesn’t have a lot of power, wasn’t young for his level, and doesn’t play superstar defense.
How much value a player gets from his speed isn’t that much. Gose having speed is way more important considering the range he has to cover. Hamilton’s speed is basically wasted at short stop since we all know you don’t get a tons of positive value from good but not great success rates and baserunning in general.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
Well I think 100+ at like 84% is valuable
But mostly I was looking at Mayo’s new top prospect lists and saw Hamilton as #1 2nd baseman prosect and thought it could fit a hole we have since their aren’t really any 2nd basemen in our system.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Let's not forget that a lot of catchers in A ball aren't future catchers
For defensive purposes. I highly doubt that 84% translates long term, especially as he ages.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
Also, and I've said this elsewhere
But I wouldn’t put much weight into Mayo’s rankings – I’d follow John Sickels, for starters. I’d always integrate as many sources as possible, but Mayo has a lot of headscratchers. Just on his SS list where Hamilton is 4, I’d take most of the guys behind him over Hamilton
Not a fan of Sickels
He seems to over value prospects, pitching prospects in particular. His knowledge of players is impressive but his scouting reports leave something to be desired.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Well, he's certainly not infallible
I don’t really follow him for socuting reports persay – he doesn’t see a lot of games in person, and when he does, doesn’t generally write them up in=depth on his website. But I like his overall approach, and as you say, the breadth of his knowledge is good. I tend to think of his information in terms of the “mile wide, inch deep” line. And then you supplement that with deeper knowledge from other sources. But in terms of rankings, I prefer his when looking over his past lists and performance, realtive to tohers. And also, there’s a lot of people at minorleagueball who know a lot, so that supplements things.
As for overvaluing prospects, well, that’s in relation to established MLB players. I don’t really follow him for that, I follow him for info on the minor leaguers themselves. As for overvaluing pitchers, I dunno about that, because he does separate lists, and he tends to shy away from comparing pitchers and position players, so I don;t know that’s a fair criticism.
He tends to throw around B+ grades for pitchers like Price throws fastballs
I’m not sure that many pitchers warrant that designation when you factor in attrition. Of course you can’t predict which ones will get hurt, but they seem to generous at times.
Keith Law is probably my favourite. His combination of MLB level baseball knowledge + extreme minor league knowledge is unmatched. He seems to understand the value of prospects more than other prospect experts do.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
Too generous*
This keyboard is not my friend tonight.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Right, I kinda agree
But I think the important thing is, he explicitly makes clear that B+ for hitter and pitchers don’t mean the same thing:
A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters.
. Now, to be fair, in his Top 20s, he won’t have a B hitter over a B+ hitter, so that kind of undermines that and supports what you’re saying. But I think if you stick t compare his ranking of pitchers to pitchers and hitters and hitter, he does a pretty good job.
I like Keith Law, and part of it I’m not an ESPN insider so I don’t see most of his in-depth work. I find some of his lists a little funny sometimes, but in general he does a good job. I agree with you that he’s good at understanding the relative value of prospects, and I tend to pay attention when he talks about these things. But for evaluating prospects, I’m more interested in prospects vis a via each other, and I think Sickels does a good job there.
*B hitter over B+ pitcher
Also, I agree that it seemed like he was over generous with B+ grades in particular this year, and it seemed moreso with pitchers. For example, just with Jays pitchers, I’d have Hutchison and Jenkins as B/B+ borderline types, not straight B+s. And if I had to choose one of the other, I’d probably go B on both
Scouts think his bat will come around
if it does he’s very valuable. If not, he’s a utility infielder. That’s basically the gist of it.
Scouts think he could be a faster Elvis Andrus (with worse defense).
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
So he's a great defensive player with no defense?
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
I believe its the arm that is a problem. hence a move to 2nd.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, a great defensive player without the great defense
Seems like a counter-intuitive thing to say.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, fine
Forget the Andrus comparison. It’s impossible to come up with an exact comp anyways.
Say he’s a below average hitter with average/below average defense at short with great baserunning. I don’t even really care much. I just doubt the Reds trade him for relievers + Hech.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
So that's an average to below average player
I’ll take Hech over him alone.
If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.
by dudedudedude on Jan 24, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
Hech is supposed to be one of the top defensive SS in the minors. Who cares about a slap hitter with great speed and no arm? I’d rather have Hech too, at least he can stick at SS (and play it well) and has the potential to be more than a slap hitter. I also understand Hech is not exactly a Molina on the basepaths either.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
That could be just poor decision making, which is coachable
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
could be
it’s not like Gose though, gaudy steals numbers but gets caught a lot. more like 17 steals 14 CS, which isn’t great. I mean it’s not horrible, but it’s not really a point for or against him
it is horrible in and of itself
I mean that it’s not horrible because it might be coachable into breakeven numbers, maybe a little better. but Hech is pretty unlikely to gain any serious value from baserunning, IMO, unless he happens to be great at going first to third
You know, I used to check out a lot of the game logs from NH games last year
Hech did get caught stealing a lot, but he seems to make things happen on the basepaths. From what I recall, he seemed to take the extra base whenever he could and he reached on quite a few errors. I know a lot of that can be chalked up to poor minor league defences but I think he’s the kind of guy that made defenders rush some throws.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
The thing is
Infield range depends on really good instincts, not just blazing speed (whereas for an outfielder, as dudex3 mentioned, it’s much more important). Hamilton’s probably a 2B, as you concede, which means the bat basically has to be MLB average. I have trouble buying that. I have trouble seeing Gose as a league average bat, and I buy into his bat a lot more.
I don't see that
His write-up focuses on the speed, and just notes the offesnive numbers improved in the second half. He still had no power, and his on base ability wasn’t real good once you adjust for the high BA. Implicitly, maybe the high ranking indicates optimism, but there’s nothing explicit about good scouting reports on the bat.
Besides the Billy Hamilton chat,
doesn’t the Morrow extension seem way better than the Danks extension?
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:34 AM EST reply actions
Not really
Both were controlled pitchers who signed extensions buying out some FA years. Neither team had to extend the player, and both players had surplus value.
I much prefer the Morrow extension. Danks has a better track record, but we’re paying for future performance. Morrow is 1 year younger, much cheaper and short years, and I’d argue he has much more upside. If you took the extensions, stripped out the portions covering the arb years, I much prefer what the Jays have with Morrow than the ChiSox with Danks
To be clear
The Jays essentially guaranteed one FA year to Morrow at around 10M (counting his arb years as 4 and 6M, respectively. If next year’s arb would have been higher, that means his performance would be better than in the past, which is good for the Jays), with an option for another at 10M, 1M buyout.
The ChiSox guaranteed 4 FA years to Danks at $57M. That’s fairly risky, even given that he’s been a very good pitcher and is reasonably young.
Maybe it’s just homerism, but I’d take Morrow and his extension.
Obviously I like the Morrow extension better
but Danks had 1 year of control left, at roughly $7.5M with arbitration. His deal covers 4 FA years, compared to Morrow’s 2. He wasn’t going to accept a deal as cheap as Morrow’s.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Okay, fair enough in terms of different leverage
I guess my point is, the goal is to build asset value. Extending Danks didn’t do that I dont think. Extending Morrow potentially does that, with relatively little downside.
I have more a problem with kenny's reasoning than the price
Well I can’t trade him so I might as well extend him.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, that was pretty stupid
Unless they think an extend-and-trade will bring in more value. Really, I have no clue.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
its possible
i think he a no trade clause for one year so maybe he’s thinking he could pull off a team to a team that can’t afford Hamels, Greinke, or Cain
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 24, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Just for the upcoming year though. To prevent a sign and trade.
As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.
"Vancouver, BC: A massive inferiority complex with a city." - TheOtherAndrew
William of Nassau am I, of Dutch blood. Loyal to the fatherland I will remain until I die.
i dont have time to read all previous comments
but heres my explanation. veteran presence helps young players. Like a second manager and a guy who can play all FOUR infield positions, three of them fairly well still and can outhit mccoy. Adds depth, experience and wont be like mccoy going up and down. what does age matter, hes better than mccoy and he can help Lawrie, Yuny ect
This is our off season answer to the signings like Cody Ross.
Redsox, Yankees Checkmate..
Omar Vizquel
I don’t think this is a bad signing. He is an upgrade over Mike McCoy and Luis Valbuena.
The younger players will have one heck of a player to look up to. This man is John McDonald’s idol, that in itself counts for a lot.
Vizquel. To fill in when KJ traded?
Probably AA will ship out KJ before the trade deadline. Vizquel/Hech then platoon at either SS or 2B and play solid D for two months, while Vizquel continues to mentor Hech as the Jays try to make him into a .250 hitter. In AA’s game of chess, this move looks out six months from now. But will Escobar be cool with moving to 2nd?
It doesn't make sense then, it does...
AA signed knowlege and mentorship more than Omar’s physical skills. Remember, this is a young (Oliver aside) team with a lot of enthusiasm and, probably, some volatility perculating. Vizquel has respect and a set of intangibles that can only help in the growth of this team.
And he’ll never hurt you in the field or be as bad as McCoy with the bad.
"Subdue the enemy without fighting" ~ Sun Tzu
Hech and Vizquel
Can you imagine being Adeiny knowing you have access to one of the best defensive players of all-time?
I wonder if AA did it just for that purpose alone.
"Subdue the enemy without fighting" ~ Sun Tzu
This off-season has been so completely boring for Jays fans
Relievers! Jeff Mathis! Omar Vizquel!
Amazing!!!!!!!
(I shouldn’t have got my hopes up for Fielder/Darvish…)
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 24, 2012 9:31 AM EST reply actions
You'd think people would get more excited about a closer given all the hysteria over the blown saves last year
Maybe it’s because he’s not a proven closer.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
by JaysfanDL on Jan 24, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, I think it's because it's no longer a hole
same reason why the holes in CF, 2B, 3B, and SP (Alvarez) being filled in the past year, plus sorting out the entire bullpen this off-season, plus a long term extension of Morrow, plus the long term extensions of Bautista and Escobar in the past year aren’t being talked about when discussing how awful this off-season has been. It’s a “what have you done for us lately” mindset, I believe (even though the Morrow extension just happened yesterday, which to me is very exciting even though it was fairly expected).
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 24, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
but that's really weird
because that’s like saying, immediately after we acquire Rickie Weeks, “this acquisition doesn’t fill a hole so it’s boring”
also
I think it’s a little premature to say Alvarez fills an SP hole… I’m bullish on him, but the guy is 21. I’d be pretty shocked if he stays in the Majors for the whole season
If we got Rickie Weeks that'd be pretty exciting.
Sergio Santos…eh.
I’m a position player guy. I have never, nor will I ever get excited about pitchers. Unless we got Justin Verlander, I don’t think I’d be excited. I know it’s strange to say that.
Also, the Morrow extension is awesome, but the starting rotation still is a whole bunch of “if” and even with Morrow it’s like “if the results line up with his peripherals” which, again, doesn’t make me super-stoked.
Sorry.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 24, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I know it's strange
For me, it’s all about position players. I’ve always been very poor at evaluating how good a pitcher is, but with hitters, the result is pretty tangible, ie. you can see them being really good, via home run, etc.
Unless they’re a high K (Morrow, Verlander) type pitcher who average mid 90’s, I just don’t get too excited.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 24, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
If you're a position player guy
Then look around the diamond, because I’d argue we have guys at 7 of 9 positions who project as average or better.overall. Exceptions being LF and 1B. That’s pretty exciting
Yeah, and a full year of Lawrie is really exciting
I think I just really wanted Lind replaced. But Rasmus, Bautista, Arencibia, Lawrie, Escobar, Johnson and even Thames occasionally are all exciting players.
Hell, I’m even excited for Encarnacion. But Lind…man, he’s just a huge downer, even though he could, in theory, bounce back.
by eight_legged_freaks on Jan 24, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Oh poo. Blown saves blown smaves… if blown saves were the benchmark by which we should desire relief pitchers then we should have all been clamoring to resign Kevin Gregg. He did have a better save conversion rate with us then Santos had with the WSox.
Frankly, Franky Frank last year came with all the same “Closer” buzz that Santos has gotten… I wasn’t excited about us getting Franky either (I think I said at the time that I’d rather have kept Napoli… in hindsight I really would rather we had kept Napoli).
to be fair
Gregg’s 2010 was legitimately a very good season, but it was an outlier for him. that season really shouldn’t have been expected given his track record
Oh absolutely… I’m just saying that after (and even during) Gregg’s legitmately good season (when considering just save conversion rate) no one wanted him back. I mean Jose’s season was an outlayer that year too but I think pretty much everyone was pleased that he was extended.
So if Kevin Gregg did really well in avoiding blown saves and no one wanted him back I really have to think that ultimately it’s not “blown saves” that people really care about.
I just hate the whole mystique that folk attach to the “closer” label and it’s associated bits like blown saves (and the Save stat in general).
I think he'll be a good mentor
The guy has been a class act for decades. We’ve got a lot of impressionable young guys on our team. Having workmen types like Johnny Mac is great, but having hard working guys that are borderline HoFers sets a completely different example.
Would it be so bad if all our MIs turned out to be copies of Vizquel for the next 20 years? I’d be pretty happy with that.
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