News and Rumors from Monday Night: Morrow, Vizquel, Uehara and Cordero
by Tom Dakers on Jan 24, 2012 10:50 AM EST
in Toronto Blue Jays News
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PrintAfter a long dry stretch, the Blue Jays did a few things yesterday and are rumored to be wanting to make more moves:
- Brandon Morrow: The Jays have announced that Morrow signed a 3 year, $20 million contract with an option for a fourth year (2015) at $10 million, nice round numbers. They also said that Brandon will be making a yearly donation to the Jays Care Foundation. They have a press conference coming at 10:30 Eastern to talk about the signing, but I'm a little too far away.
- Omar Vizquel: They also announced that Omar Vizquel has signed a minor league contract, with a spring training invite. Vizquel will be 45 in April, if he makes the team they will have two players in their 40's on the roster. Might not win the AL East but we'll have the leagues best shuffleboard team.
- Francisco Cordero: There are rumors the Jays are offering a contract to Cordero. He had 37 saves, last year, and a 2.45 ERA, but that came with a .214 BABIP (he is normally in the .300 range). I think going from the NL Central to the AL East would put a big hurt on his numbers, but he is a good pitcher.
- Koji Uehara: There are rumors the Jays are interested in trading for him, in fact some where saying it was a done deal (oh the fun of twitter). He's got a great arm and has a career 3.13 ERA with 9.6 K/9. I'd love to have him but then we are up to our armpits in RHP in the pen, I wouldn't mind another good lefty.
Other than that, I think it is funny that the Red Sox traded away Marco Scutaro for payroll relief. A team with a payroll like their's, trading Scoot to drop payroll? Is like a fat guy passing up vegetables to loss weight.
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I listened to a bit of it
Morrow said he was thankful AA traded for him, he’s loyal to AA for giving him a chance to start and he loves the city, team etc.
nothing very interesting
by leaflover4ever on Jan 24, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
they were both there, I missed most of AA’s comments.
by leaflover4ever on Jan 24, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Farrell and Morrow are coming up on 590, if you’re interested in that.
by leaflover4ever on Jan 24, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
that sounds funny
You are too classy to listen to the radio?
I blog, therefore I am.
by Tom Dakers on Jan 24, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 11 recs
haha, yeah I should probably start paying attention during those things
by leaflover4ever on Jan 24, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Farrell was already on, Morrow’s on now.
http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air
by leaflover4ever on Jan 24, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Vizquel
= AA’s new and fresh reason for bumping Snider off the roster and back to AAA this spring. Going for the ‘this team needed a player-coach’ approach this year.
by brockbirds on Jan 24, 2012 10:58 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Snider is an outfielder, Vizquel is an infielder, he's not bumping Snider
Vizquel is insurance and that’s it. If something happens to Escobar or Johnson in ST, one of McCoy, Valbuena or Vizquel would have to take their spot and that leaves a backup IF position open as well.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Or Lawrie. Had to be said.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
by Jevant on Jan 24, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that too, I just don't want to even think about that scenario
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
I am fairly convinced that Lawrie will miss at least some time throughout the year because of the way he plays. Vizquel would (should) replace the defensive aspects of his game. I wouldn’t mind starting the year with him as the utility infielder, and simply keeping him in that role. If someone gets hurt, bring up Valbuena to play in that spot, and keep Vizquel on the roster as a defensive replacement.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
I think Valbuena is out of options, if so, he'd have to pass through waivers if they sent him down
I’m not sure on that though.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Yeah, I don’t know that either. That said, Valbuena hasn’t really been much and was only ever for a bench role, so not much of a loss there in my books.
I guess I’m just a fan of the Vizquel idea. Thinking outside the box a bit, and getting a veteran presence. Shows a willingness not to only go after one type of player.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Vizquel is an upgrade in glove over Valbuena
Maybe with the bat too, although Vizquel has really dropped off in that department. A little competition in ST isn’t a bad thing either for Vizquel, McCoy and Valbuena.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Question for Tom
Is bluebird banter is going to be releasing a prospect list like in previous years?
yes...
We are working on it. Trouble is I have four separate fairly large projects going on at the same time and limited hours to work on them. I have to get two more things out of the way then we’ll get the list together.
I blog, therefore I am.
Trading Marco = clearing space for Hanley Ramirez
according to WEEI punditry.
by mike in boston on Jan 24, 2012 11:15 AM EST reply actions
OTM is saying it's to free up space for a starting pitcher
It’s actually not a bad move. An Aviles/Punto platoon can approximate Scutaro’s production and it frees up some payroll for a starting pitcher like Oswalt without the Sox going over the luxury tax limit.
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There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Aviles/Punto platoon can approximate Scutaro’s production
That seems like an unnecessary gamble to me when you can simply up your payroll a bit to compete with the clearly better (on paper at present, anyways) Yankees and quite possibly better Rays.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
I very much doubt that they will go with Punto or Aviles
there has to be another move coming.
I blog, therefore I am.
Maybe…but even so why get rid of Scutaro? Isn’t Scutaro a great utility player at that price? Fills in for Dustin/improved SS, Youkilis, etc when they are hurt or need a day off? Heckuva lot better than wasting money on Punto/Aviles, in my books.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Punto/Aviles are cheaper than Scutaro
Also, Scutaro is 36 years old. How much do you really think he has in the tank? Sox have Iglesias too. If he’s ready, Punto/Aviles aren’t blocking him. Punto’s a decent defender who can get on base, Aviles mashes lefties, they make a decent platoon.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
I am still struggling with this new “money restrictions” for the Yanks/Sox. Very strange to me. Iglesias makes more sense to me.
My only point is that if you subtract one of (whichever one doesn’ tmake the team) Punto/Aviles’ salary from Scutaro’s, I’d have a hard time seeing that Scutaro plus the survivor of that competition isn’t a better combo. If the money is REALLY that tight, I guess I sorta see it. I think my only thought is that the money SHOULDN’T be that tight for them, since they are presumably “going for it” this year.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Everybody has a budget and they're really close to the luxury tax limit
They need starting pitching more than Scutaro’s production at SS. Lackey’s out for the year and Dice-K is gone for most of the year too and the Sox don’t have many starting pitching prospects close to the MLB level. They need to sign a guy like Roy Oswalt this off-season.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Not even close
One is a borderline case for the HOF and the other is a decent player. Vizquel had a much higher ceiling than Scutaro ever did.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
It's such a cop out
to suggest a payroll increase. Obviously any GM would want the team to increase payroll, but every team is working with confines, just like any business.
.313/.400/.565
I really think it's a bad move
Aviles and Punto won’t nearly as good (in a platoon) as Scutaro is. Maybe the pitching upgrade is worth it, if/when it happens, but untill the other shoe drops, as a Jay fan I really like this move, which means it’s not very for Boston.
You can't really compare Aviles/Punto to what Scutaro has done in the past
The question the Sox had to ask themselves is Aviles/Punto comparable to what Scutaro can do in 2012? He’s 36 years old and is not likely to get better but probably will be a bit worse.
They had a leading offence last season despite weak spots in RF (the corpse of J.D. Drew), LF (Crawford, WTF?) and partially at C (April and September for Salty, anytime Varitek played). A Ross/Sweeney platoon should improve RF, Crawford has to be better in LF and Lavarnaway/Salty provides a bit more pop at C than Varitek/Salty. A slight downgrade at SS to upgrade the starting pitching (the true weak point of the Sox) is a deal I would do anytime. The Sox are not going to be weaker this year, in fact, this deal helps them to maintain their strength.
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There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
I'm not
I’m looking forward. Yes, Scutaro is older, and you dock his projection a bit, but Aviles/Punto I don’t think project to close to that, particularly the OBP. And I said nothign about the Red Sox being better or worse than next year, I said I don’t like the move because I think they bungled the move and destroyed potential value.
As for the strength of their offense – so what? The name is the game is to score as many runs as possible, and give up as few. Just because you have a good offense, doesn’t mean that giving production away is any less worse. I said above, let’s see what they do to upgrade the pitching rotation, and then we can try to estimate if they did actually improve net.
And the fact remains, that if Boston knew they wanted pitching, and were tight for budget, then they should have been willing to move Scutaro earlier. There were tons of teams who needs help at 2B, who signed mediocre journeyman to multi-year deals, when Scutaro would have been a better option for most of them. Instead, they got basically nothing back for him, at all. That is bad. And then they turn around and spend $3M (half of Scutaro) and Cody Ross.
I’ll reserve judgment until corresponding moves are made, and while it’s not quite OrioLOL bad, I don’t think it was good for Boston, in terms of result or process (which is far important for us, since a bad process in Boston would be very good).
I think another factor at play here is Iglesias
If Punto/Aviles don’t cut it, the Sox likely bring in Iglesias. You mentioned that the name of the game is to score as many runs as possible and to give up as few as possible. Iglesias is a definite upgrade over Scutaro in the run prevention department, as would be another starting pitcher like Oswalt. I know we don’t fully know how good or bad this deal is until a pitcher is signed but I still don’t think it’s a bad deal.
FWIW, the guys over at OTM like the deal and they know their stuff, particularly Marc Normandin.
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There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
Iglesias
Sure, he’s likely a defensive upgrade. As siggian points out, he can’t hit a lick, and so sticking him to replace Scutaro is likely a huge downgrade. This is a gu who slashed .235/.285/.269 in almost 400 PA in AAA. If you just assume he could match that in the bigs, he’d be no more than a replacment level player unless he’s the reincarnation of Ozzie Smith, in which case he’d still be below average overall.
As for OTM, where’s Gerse when you need an appeal to authority reference? Good for them if they think it’s a good move, as I’ve said, I’ll reserve full judgment until the corresponding moves have been made, but regardless of what they do, the best you can say is that they did not get good value for Scutaro
The value was in dumping Scutaro's contract to free up money for other moves
The Sox have holes to fill, and the offense is the least of them. As for the offense of the three, if you do a comparision of their wOBAs, Aviles comes out ahead in ‘08 and ’10 (he lost ’09 to injury). Punto isn’t far off Scutaro either. As for defence, UZR likes Punto much better at SS.
I don’t want to incur the wrath of Gerse, so I won’t mention the OTM articles again, but if you look at the numbers, Scutaro isn’t much better than Aviles or Punto. Aviles and Punto have their weaknesses (defence and slugging respectively) but in a platoon, their deficiencies can be masked somewhat and the Sox have payroll flexibility.
As for Iglesias, he was 21 at AAA last year, that’s pretty young for that league. His defence is supposed to be major league ready now (scouts say that he and Hech are easily the best two defensive SS in the minors). His bat could still come around or at least get to the point where it doesn’t take away all the value from his glove.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
The value was in dumping Scutaro’s contract to free up money for other moves
Two points. First, for this line of argument to work, you need to know the other moves, which is why I’ve twice said I’ll reserve judgment until the corresponding moves are made. Second, however, even if that’s true, Scutaro was still an asset, and they got precious little for him, whereas had they exercised some foresight, they could have done much better. Keith Law made a decent analogy on Twitter – if you trade a computer for a paperclip, and turn around and trade a paperclip for a car, it doesn’t make the first trade any better.
The Sox have holes to fill, and the offense is the least of them.
I disagree. A run scored is as good as a run saved.
As for the offense, I’m skeptical Aviles is as good as Scutaro, though I concede the projections put them nearly together. In any event, he has had more variance, so he’s riskier. As for “Punto isn’t far off Scutaro”, hardly. Career 78 wRC+ to 94 w RC+ – that’s a significant gap. Punto’s glove is nice, but the bat is anemic, which cancels it out.
Back to Iglesias, yes he’s young, but the reality is the scouting reports on the bat are terrible. It depends what you mean by take away all the value, but Iglesias will likely never be more an autility infielder (which has value, but not as a first divsion starter). As for the defence, sure, I said it’s great. Not the point.
How do you know the Sox didn't try to get more for Scutaro?
How many teams are eager to line up for a 36 year old middle infielder and give up a prospect for that or another serviceable piece? Even if you want to make fun of the Dodgers for scooping up those kind of guys, they did it on the FA market where it only cost them money and not players. It could be that other GMs don’t think highly of Scutaro at this point in his career and aren’t giving up much for him.
I agree with your point that we need to see the subsequent moves by the Sox to get the full value of this move. However, they already partially filled a hole in RF by signing Cody Ross to platoon with Sweeney. That is an upgrade over the lost offence JD Drew gave them last year in RF. So the Scutaro deal is already working out for them somewhat by giving them the flexibility to sign Ross.
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
At this point in the offseason, they couldn't
My point was, if they neded to clear payroll, they should have done this a while ago when there would have been more interested parties. Scutaro may be a 36 year old middle infielder, but he’s aslo extrememly productive and consistent, average of 3.2 fWAR over the past 4 years with a floor of 2.4 and an OBP of .353. And it’s only a one year commitment for $6M, compared to the multi-year deals that roughly equally aged and much poorer players got. I’m not saying the Red Sox should have got a ton of value, but the guy they got is throw-in, they basically got nothing. In my opinion, it’s not that GMs don;t think highly of Scutaro, it’s that the Sox had no leverage, there were few openings and fewer teams who could take on $6M at this point.
As for the Dodgers, you’re trying to tell me it’s better to commit 15M over two years to Mark Ellis and Jerry Hairston than to give up a some prospect value and have Scutaro and pay him $6M for 1 season? I can’t believe that. Or that Milwaukee, who gave $4.25M to Alex Gonzalez, wouldn;t have rather had Scutaro at the cost of a C/C+ type prospect? Again, the hole was filled, the Six had few options, because they failed to anticipate theit needs and take action 2 months ago.
On Ross, sure, okay, so that’s $3M and $3M left. I thought the point was to get pitching – “the true weak point” – who are they going to get for that? Not Oswalt, not for $3M
I agree about Punto/Aviles platoon being not too far off Scutaro
I think they can have fairly close production and comparable defense with a platoon of those two players compared to what they would have got from Scutaro, while saving money to spend elsewhere. Depending on what they get, they should be ahead with that move.
However, having any faith in Iglesias playing this year is a pipe-dream. It would be comparable to us expecting Gose to be our savior in LF, or Hech being able to take SS and moving Escobar to 2B at the trade deadline. I think that argument really just weakens the pro side of this debate – the comparison should just be the platoon of Punto/Aviles + whatever they get with the savings vs. Scutaro.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 24, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe this is a symptom
Of how badly churned up the Bosox organization is this year. You had the firing of Tito, the exodus of Theo, and LOLing of the manager search. Perhaps this yet another sign of how the Red Sox still haven’t gotten things completely squared away yet.
I sure hope so
They’ve got a lot of money tied up, and if they’re actually up to thier budget limits, if things start going badly there, the won’t be able to patch the cracks in the foundation with money.
So NOT eating vegetables makes you fat?
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 24, 2012 11:20 AM EST reply actions
Prince Fielder would beg to differ
Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison
No Tom
The Bosox behaviour is like a fat guy going up to the buffet 6 times but ordering the Diet Coke because he’s on a diet.
Back when I was a teenager I worked at Mcdonalds… you have no idea how many times an obese person would come to the till and order a Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese Meal (Supersized) and then ask that their large drink be a Diet Coke. Many an eye rolling moment for me.
some people like the taste better?
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 24, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
How many days is there until spring training?
and have we invented time travel yet so i can travel forward so spring training comes faster?
GO JAYS GO!!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 24, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
i guess he will agree to DH
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 24, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
I can't believe he's going to his Dads old team
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 24, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
im shocked hes going to get 9 years
everyone seemed pretty sure he would have to settle for 5-6
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 24, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
IT'S FINALLY OVER
areallycoolgiftoillustratethis.gif
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 24, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Crazy
If true, completely out of nowhere. This just helps Boras the enxt time he says mystery team.
Also – 9 years. Wow. Then again, the Tigers have a pretty good position in the weak AL Central, a strong veteran core and poor farm system. So they could have a nice 3-5 year run and then have a gut wrenching rebuild.
intense
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 24, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
mindblown
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 24, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Almost 24M a year
Wow. Unbelievable. The backend of that one could look ugly. Score another for Boras
Highest paid DH ever?
thisrighthere!
by TonyFernandezSavedMyLife on Jan 24, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
wow, tons of money for a DH……..how much WAR would he have to get per year to live up to that deal?
Toronto Maple Leafs: All about the Lemon Grabs
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My contract calculator
Says he needs to be about 5.7 WAR next year to be worth it, declining from there. $5M/WAR, -0.5 WAR/year, 5% inflation. Total of 29.3 WAR
Prince Fielder Discussion Thread Here
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/1/24/2730528/tigers-sign-prince-fielder
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/1/24/2730528/tigers-sign-prince-fielder
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/1/24/2730528/tigers-sign-prince-fielder
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by Minor Leaguer on Jan 24, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Who was going the other way?
What I’d like to know is who was going the other way in the Uehara deal. Probably 15 GM’s are wondering the same thing. It could be AA’s ticket to getting a #2 if someone were to find out that, say, Snider, was on the block and he could work his magic from there.
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