Toronto Raptors Syndrome?
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 30, 2012 12:34 PM EST
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PrintI am not a doctor (yet), but I think I may have diagnosed the Blue Jays with a mild case of Toronto Raptors syndrome.
This is my first fanpost, so please be kind, but as a Canadian living in the US I think I can speak with some confidence on this subject.
With the recent trade rejections and lack of interest of certain free agents in Toronto, the question I pose is: Do you think a lot of American ball players won't come to Toronto, because it is in Canada? Explanation after the jump.
I think this is especially relevant in the NBA. For many American athletes the glory and lights of Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and Miami are a huge draw for them and they want to play in those cities. Really because in their eyes those places are just 'cool'.
Toronto, a large city in its own right and very, very 'cool', is not really on the map for them (in some instances probably literally). This is why the Raptors have historically scouted and tried to sign international players. This phenomenon may be happening to the Toronto Blue Jays.
I think for someone like Roy Oswalt, Prince Fielder, even Yu Darvish and Uehara. They do not associate Toronto with the glory and history of American baseball. Especially those from the National League who never play in Rogers Centre. But perhaps more accurately, they don't know Jack about Canada. Many Americans are very naive about countries outside their own. I think this is probably because their country is the center of so much media and political attention, thus, their is little knowledge of places like Toronto and how they may relate to US Cities.
So perhaps we are not only at a financial disadvantage, but a geographical one as well. The age of the poor Canadian dollar appears behind us, but perhaps now the Jays are at a 'social image' disadvantage. Toronto Raptors syndrome is a debilitating disease, but it can be cured, perhaps by better advertising of how great the city can be for Athletes of any nationality and better media attention for the Jays in the US. I watch ESPN down here religiously, and I don't think the network knows Toronto has a baseball team.
What do you think? Maybe this is news to no one. Be kind to my first post.
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there are two things that draw free agents
money occupies positions one, two, and three, and winning occupies spot four.
Yu Darvish did not have a choice in where he signed. the Rangers won the bidding, that’s it.
I can pretty much guarantee (at least, I hope I can) that the Jays did not offer Fielder anything anywhere close to 9/214
Uehara had a no-trade claude, I don’t really get why he prefers Baltimore but whatever. maybe because the RogCen is so homer-happy? similar story with Oswalt. Toronto is a very foolish place for a fly ball pitcher to regain value for the FA market
So you don't think TRS exists?
Is Cleveland a fly ball park? Why would Oswalt not wanna pitch there?
I should not have included Darvish. That is a bad example.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 30, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Oswalt wants to pitch for a winner
Since he’s going to sign a one year deal, at essentially a discount to try and rebuild value, why not pitch for a winner?
ya, that's more about a winning team
but Cleveland is quite a homer-friendly park. They;ve basically built their team for the next few years around extreme GB guys like Jimenez, bizzaro-Carmona, Lowe, etc., trying to take advantage of that. It probably won’t work, but that’s what they’ve done
I read that because Uehara and his family are from Japan, it would have been a very intricate process for them to all come to Canada. Apparently he lives not only with his wife, but extended family too and it would have been complicated to get them all into Canada from the US. That is why the Blue Jays were listed as as a team on his no trade clause.
by Sean Coleman on Jan 30, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
majority of Uehara's family first settled in B-more
That’s why he wanted to go back there.
Can we start the Gose watch yet?
Limited Effect
As mentioned, money trumps most things, and contention the rest. There are advantages to having a pedigree, and it certainly opens more opportunities, but Toronto’s lack of stature on ESPN probably impacts on less then 2% of potential deals, and most of those are usually long shots.
In the early 1990s
The Jays brought in Dave Winfield, Jack Morris and Paul Molitor as free agents, and these were some of the premiere players of the day (now to be fair, that wasn’t really a move north but just east). And that’s just a couple off the top of my head, I’m sure there’s more. Roger Clemens came here after 1996 as a FA.
In all those cases, the Jays offered top dollar and had been very winning team for the better part of a decade (in the case of Clemens they had just been WS champions).
Also, going back to the Raptors analogy, remember that after they had a few winning seasons, they were able to convince Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, and Vince Carter to sign extensions. Winning and money are what matters
Also more recently
AJ Burnett, BJ Ryan, and Frank Thomas. All the Jays need to do is offer money and they will come.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Jan 30, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely Roger Clemens shows that it didn't occur back then.
Extensions I don’t think are the issue. Once players get to Toronto they see how great it is. I was more talking about free agents. Perhaps it is also a reflection of Anthopolous’ lack of desire to pursue big money FAs.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 30, 2012 12:53 PM EST reply actions
This makes me sad
This is my first fanpost, so please be kind
People are not mean. The only time a fanpost gets ridiculed is when its just so silly and outrageous. I wish people weren’t afraid to post, you want discussion generated when you make one, that comes with some criticism.
Don’t be afraid !!!
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Jan 30, 2012 1:11 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Ha. Thanks for the boost of confidence!
I have no fear!
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 30, 2012 1:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This
A zillion times this.
Prefacing opinions by essentially asking people not to criticize them defeats the purpose of expressing opinions. If a belief were so widely held that no one anywhere opposed it, you wouldn’t bother expressing it because people would just ridicule the banality of it.
ORDINAL TEAM RANKINGS ARE NOT ROBUST OR USEFUL ANALYTICAL TOOLS
That's fine. I was just trying to acknowledge that I am posting an opinion to a forum of people that know much more about baseball than I do
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 30, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Had meant to clarify that that wasn't directed at you specifically
Your disclaimer was much less “DO NOT DISAGREE WITH ME BECAUSE IT’S MEAN” than the ones I was thinking of.
ORDINAL TEAM RANKINGS ARE NOT ROBUST OR USEFUL ANALYTICAL TOOLS
TRS is more of a convenient excuse
Players look for excuses on why they won’t play for a certain team. Toronto being in another country is a convenient one because it directs attention from the real reasons like lack of winning and not enough dollars or years on the contract offer.
Sometimes the excuses players give are real, and sometimes they are not.
I don't think it's the players who use it as an excuse
I think it’s the team and the media who use it as an excuse, either to deflect blame about why they couldn’t attract a certain player or to fit a woe-is-me, it’s-not-my-fault-it’s-the-big-bad-Americans! narrative about the sad state of the team
I constantly have this argument with friends
If the team was a contender, people would want to play here. As a big basketball fan, I like to use Oklahoma City or San Antonio as examples. Players want to play for these teams, and may even be willing to take less money, as they are considered well run organizations that have a track record of contending, or are on the cusp of being a serious championship threat.
Zack Greinke decided to accept a trade to the Brewers instead of the Nationals because they were considered closer to contending, and was unrelated to his feelings towards the city of Washington DC.
At least I don't live in Cleveland
I would say though, that there is probably some truth to this for some American born players to some degree
But that would be related more to it just being natural to want to stay in your own country. I know if I had the choice between working in Canada or the US, I would definitely pick Canada, but that’s because this is my home. With that said, if a big truckload of money was dropped off at my front door, I may be swayed to change my mind.
For players from outside the US, I would think that it would have less of an impact, because they are already moving away from home anyways.
do we actually have evidence that FAs have chose to not sign in Toronto because it's in Canada?
Other someone in Toronto saying “oh this guy signed somewhere else, it’s obviously because he hates Toronto/Canada —> SELF RGHTEOUS TIRADE!!!!”
Something like a direct quote from a player or agent or someone signing for substantially less money rather than the Jays or some other form of investigatory evidence? The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Steve Francis in Vancouver. That’s it.
Francis eventually changed his mind
He loved the city when he actually went there. I remember him on the front of the newspaper with a huge smile on his face in Vancouver. He was finally excited to play there. They traded him like 2 days later lol.
Man who has four balls cannot walk
by Beer Leaguer on Jan 30, 2012 3:47 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
The one I remember (vaguely) was some basketball player who said he didn't want his children ...
… learning the metric system. Okay, there was more to it than that. It ended up as a major rant, but I don’t remember all the details.
by Defense Counts! on Jan 30, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Antonio Davis
told Jim Rome he was worried about his kids learning the metric system and the Canadian anthem.
Cause the metric system is so gosh darn hard.
Powers of 10!
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 30, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
yes
but he said that while he was a member of the Raptors. Though he was acquired in trade and then did not resign.
Davis clearly demonstrates
1) You do not have to be very smart to be a professional athlete.
2) How little he clearly knows about the world.
My first wife is a physiotherapist and she went to school in the US. You should have seen all her US classmates panic, when they all had to learn the Metric system and the same goes for medical school students. Guess Davis never travelled much, then he would have realized how many countries use th metric system/
I’m sure it comes up as a consideration, especially when you’re weighing close offers in terms of dollars and years. I’ve also read that that Jays are one of the most commonly included clubs in ‘no-trade’ clauses (from sources that are pretty second hand, granted), but I really think it has as much to do with Canada as it does with the division and the Jays’ relative position in it. If I’m a decent reliever or middle of the rotation starter in the NL West, you can be sure I’m going to put Baltimore and Toronto on my ‘no-trade’ list if I want to keep my career going helathy and there’s no playoff run in the mix.
But all that being said, I strongly doubt it hurts us more than fractionally. We likely won’t get a discount from big name free agents just so they can be part of the great ‘Jays’ tradition, but as long as we’ll offering top dollar, we’ll still get most of the players we go after.
I think we are getting a consensus here.
The TRS I diagnosed may be better defined as a Canada factor’. That some (ignorant) free agents may require a little more money or extra incentive to come north of the border if they are blinded by the bright lights of the American cities.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 30, 2012 5:39 PM EST reply actions
I'm not convinced
The Blue Jays have never really seemed to have a problem attracting players. I don’t think free agents require more money because it’s Canada, I think they require more money because that is what it takes to lure free agents. They certainly aren’t going to take less money to come here.
I don't really see from where you're drawing that conclusion
pretty much everything in this thread has been about money, and to a lesser extent winning, being the only real factors in a free agent’s decision
according to AA in last night's SOTF
DHing and playing on turf are other considerations. Alex strongly implied that the Jays had matched or exceeded the contract that StL offered to Carlos Beltran, but that he did not want to play on turf and/or DH (which the Jays would have required him to). He also implied that the Jays matched or exceeded the offer that at least 1 other prominent FA signed for (did not name names), but that he ultimately decided to sign with another team for unspecified reasons.
Also, remember that Scott Rolen also wanted out of Toronto because of the turf issue. Turf vs grass and AL vs NL issues (e.g. not wanting to switch leagues, not wanting to play on turf) seem to be real effects as well as money and winning, and the Jays unfortunately have come out on the wrong side of both of those issues recently.
I agree with you that the “Toronto” or “Canada” factor has not been conclusively proven. There are US teams that have trouble attracting marquee free agents -is it “ignorant” of players to not want to play in those cities? Just because guys don’t want to come to Toronto doesn’t mean they are dumb or Canadian-phobic or whatever and noone has yet provided evidence of a baseball player who refused to sign with Toronto specfically because it’s Toronto/Canada. We do, however, have 2 examples of basketball players (Francis, A Davis) for whom this seems to have been a major, if not the major, factor.
True all of these are major factors.
However, the ‘unspecified reasons’ lingers. If there was an anti-Canadian or lack of interest in Canada factor in the decision, no free agent would say so. It’s like if a really unattractive girl (or guy if you are female) asked why won’t you date me? The real answer is cause your ugly, but you wouldn’t say that. Perhaps you’d say, ’you’re not my type’ or ‘I really just wanna be single right now’. haha
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 31, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
ok
I can accept that. But now we are just speculating as to FA’s reasons based on no actual information. We really can’t just say “he didn’t come to Toronto, it’s because he hates Toronto.” If we are going to assert an anti-Canadian or anti-Toronto bias among FAs, there needs to be at least some basis for that and not just stereotype or conjecture. And I have yet to see any such evidence, even very weak evidence.
If someone can show examples of that, I would be very pleased to change my mind. But I haven’t seen any evidence yet that indicates that I should accept that such a bias or opinion exists.
True.
We should not presume guilty until proven innocent.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 31, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I believe that basketball requires more free agent signings for success then is required in baseball. As a result, even if the assertion that players do not want to play for the Toronto Blue Jays were true, it would be a set back for the Blue Jays goal of building a contender but not the crippling road block it is for the Toronto Raptors. I believe however that there are fundamental differences between the average free agent basketball player and free agent baseball players. I also think that the Blue Jays probably lose more potential free agents due to the carpet at the dome then free agents who refuse to play in Canada so our location shouldn’t cause concern over the Blue Jays ability to build a contender. The Raptors on the other hand are probably boned, and a lot of things are going to have to go right along with a few miracles for that organization to ever have any kind of sustained success in the NBA. Anybody who is even remotely good doesn’t want to play for the Raptors and they cannot overpay for free agents (like the Blue Jays could, if they wanted to, if they were stupid) in any way because of the NBA salary cap.
Disagree
success in basketball requires acquiring a top-flight superstar. It is extraordinarily difficult to win a championship in the NBA without what has been called a “gold medal superstar.” In the past 30 or so years, only the Pistons have won without one (in 2004, and I guess you could count the Bad Boys teams in ‘90 and ’91 if you don’t think Isiah Thomas was a GMS, though I do).
This list includes guys like Duncan, Jordan, Garnett, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Dirk, and I might be forgetting a couple. Of that list, only Shaq was acquired via free agency. Dirk and Kobe were acquired in trades during the draft, so were de facto drafted by the teams they led to championshiops if not de jure. The rest were drafted directly by their teams.
The relative difficulty of bringing in GMS’ via FA is likely enhanced by the so-called “Bird rights” whereby teams can exceed the salary cap provisions to resign their own players – incentivizing teams to resign their top guys rather than let them walk like in baseball.
In contrast, FAs have very often been instrumental (or the main reason) in guiding teams to recent baseball championships. Prominent examples include: Manny Ramirez for the 2004/2007 Red Sox, ARod/Granderson/Clemens/every other Yankee FA in the last 15 years, the entire 1997 and much of the 2003 Marlins (basically just not Cabrera), Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson in 2001, etc, etc.
I believe this supports the idea using FAs to bring championship success works better in baseball than in the NBA. In basketball, you want to get a high draft pick in a draft with a potential GMS, draft him, and then build around that guy. It’s not about FAs, or at least not about marquee FAs.
correction
Garnett was acquired by the Celtics via trade, obviously not during the draft when taken by Minnesota. But he wasn’t an FA.
I'd just like to point out
The Raptors haven’t historically looked at international players. It only became rampant during the Colangelo era and the fact that he had quite a few international players in Phoenix suggets the market in Toronto wasn’t the main reason
Evidence?
“Anthopoulos said two free agents turned down more years and more money from the Blue Jays to sign elsewhere this offseason, Wilner tweets”
… from MLBTR
It might not be Canada-specific – for example, Beltran said that he did not want to play on turf. But interesting, in light of the comments above about time and $$$ being the overwhelming decision factors.
There is a major difference between the Jays and the Raptors
and that is Success.
Albeit, the Jays haven’t been very successful recently, but all players know that the Jays were one of the best teams in the early 90s. The Raptors never won any championships, and I don’t think you could call them the best team of any era.
So not only is it in Canada, where basketball is not popular, but it also has no winning history.
The Jays are able to spend above average salaries, players don’t have to be here during the winter months (which aren’t even that bad anymore anyways), and they are a more storied franchise than the Raptors. Compared to smaller market cities like Oakland, Kansas City, Tampa bay etc., players would rather come here. And if the Skydome ever gets to the attendance rankings from the early 90s, I think you’ll find even more players wanted to come here.
Can we start the Gose watch yet?
Not sure the history applies.
Any free agent under 30 (Prince for example) would have been less than 11 when the jays last one a title. I kind of doubt they would associate that with any historical success they would remember. Just a thought.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Jan 31, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
True, but it is there.
It shows that at one point the Jays had one, and they had fans.
The raptors have never been there. They’ve had fans coming to games, yes, but they’ve never won. Not sure how much merit that holds, but I feel its the reason some of the new NHL teams can’t seem to get anything going either (Blue Jackets especially). There is no history of competence and winning, why would anyone want to go there?
Can we start the Gose watch yet?
I don't know the significance of the effect
I’m sure it’s come up in some decision. But its not like the Leafs have been overly effective in signing high end free agents either.
I remember reading how much basketball players loved coming here to play against the Raptors because Toronto has an outstanding nightlife and good parties. However I’ve also seen stories about players whining about not being able to watch American TV and such. And they don’t like playing here in the winter.
Summer in Toronto is fantastic so weather isn’t a factor. i’m thinking playing in front of a mostly empty stadium, in the AL East, on turf has more of an effect. I also think players here have to pay more in taxes (sombody correct me if I’m wrong). There may be some guys who think like Chipper Jones but then there are guys like Adam Lind who love the city so I don’t know.
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
Alright this is annoying. I'm American, and Americans don't hate Canada.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if the location weather, etc of Toronto made it less desirable for free agents. Most American baseball players come from California, Florida, Texas and other southern states. I’m from California and I don’t think I would ever live in a place that snowed.
Players probably think the same way. I think New York, Boston, Detroit, etc have the same issues. The difference is those teams will overpay enough to make location irrelevant.
by Matthew Mueller on Jan 31, 2012 10:17 PM EST reply actions
I didn't mean to imply they hate Canada
Jut that some Athletes don’t see it as ‘cool’ like Miami, LA, Chicago, New York. etc.
P.S. There are more professional baseball players from California, New York, Penn, and Ohio than Texas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_baseball_players_by_state.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 1, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
That's a historical list
Today, there are far more players from Texas than NY, Pen or Ohio (individually), since it has a bigger populations than all those except New York, and Texas has year round baseball whereas NY is a cold weather sport.
By contrast, in 1900, Pennsylvania had a 50% higher proportional share of the US population than it does now (though the absolute number is higher) and Texas has double the proportional share today than it did in 1900.
P.S. I live in Louisiana right now but am moving to San Diego in 3 months.
Any tips about California life from a resident?
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 1, 2012 12:49 PM EST reply actions
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