Brett Lawrie for Joey Votto
by bluejays13 on Feb 13, 2012 3:59 PM EST
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PrintI was thinking of who I would trade for Brett Lawrie and I listed off the stars: Kershaw, Kemp, Pujols etc. But because Brett is Canadian, I just would not trade him for one of those players. But then I realized Votto was also Canadian. I think that Votto right now is a top 10 player in the MLB. Although, Brett is younger and has more potential than Votto (I think). I don't think I would do the trade, for reasons such as age and years under control. So, would you trade Votto for Lawrie?
edit: NOT A TRADE RUMOUR OR SPECULATION, just a fun discussion
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Votto has two controlled years
Lawrie has six. Votto’s are are the two most expensive. You’d have to believe that Votto is something like 4-5 better than Lawrie over the next two years to make this worth it
Yeah this is nuts
remember when those people made Bautista for harper threads, that was just silly
Oh wait…
Its fun for some to speculate.
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
It was Romero for Harper (which I'd still do in a flash, and would never ever happen irl)
Bautista should fetch way more
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
ok
but you do understand the point im trying to make right
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
I would
I just don’t understand why people would propose fake trades that are extremely unfavourable for the Jays
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
that doesn't mean you write what you did lol
you state the points for/against not just “like seriously?”
This is what makes people afraid to post their thoughts, they just get jumped on for posting them rather then get the discussion they wanted.
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I mean, if you're the Yankees, fine
you have so much money you don’t exactly care what an elite talent costs. The Jays aren’t the Yankees.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I am not sure if you misunderstood me
iI was agreeing with Pikachu that I would not like to trade Lawrie for Votto because of price/years
In AA we trust.
ok now i don't understand
you are saying you wouldn’t do the trade, there aren’t any rumours suggesting its in the works.
Why this post
Im confused too
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
oh ok
looks like a landslide in the poll lol
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by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
..lawrie is canadian
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
so Lawrie's becoming a star for the Jays
is better than than Bautista becoming a star for the Jays? Or Halladay being the best pitcher in baseball for most of the 00’s for the Jays? Or if Rasmus becomes what people think he can be on the Jays?
You are free to think that, but I must say I don’t get it at all.
I'd say it is, yeah
but the Canadian-ness is never going to be more than gravy. I’d never take a worse, Canadian player over a better, non-Canuck, but I’d bet the Canuck has better marketability by some factor greater than epsilon
by benk on Feb 13, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
mmmm ... gravy
Terrible analogy. Gravy makes everything at least 10 times better.
by Playoffs!!!!1 on Feb 14, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
he meant the poll being even
but i guess it goes hand in hand
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
mmm foot
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
If Kershaw was Candadian...
But I would really like to see a Candian Superstar on the Jays
In AA we trust.
Not trying to be a jerki
but you’d rather the Jays have a Canadian rather than the Jays win? I know it’s not mutually exclusive, but Lawrie for Kershwa is probably better for the franchise than Lawrie for Votto.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
You are such a Jerki, LOL, just kidding, I understand
The extra wins we get out of Kershaw, would not be worth more than a Cnadian on the team, unless those wins push us into the playoffs
In AA we trust.
If someone on the jays is gonna help them win,
and hit 50 bombs a year I don’t care if he’s from Mars. WE’VE WAITED LONG ENOUGH!!
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 13, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
we have a guy like that
his name is Bautista.
Not that getting a second player who can hit like Bautista is a bad thing. In fact, it would be a very very good thing. But giving up Lawrie for a guy like that nearing free agency probably isn’t
My point really was that its nice to have canadian players
But i dont care. I want awesome players!
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 13, 2012 10:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It is for me
3 years of control vs. 2 (and the extra one is cheapest), Votto isn;t 1.5 times as valuable as Kershaw. I still wouldn’t do either
yes
and I’d be much more happy having Kershaw through his 20s than Votto through his 30s (assuming extension for both)
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Do you think the jays will get Votto once he's a free agent.
It makes so much sense with even a reasonable price tag.
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 13, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt the price tag on Votto
Is going to be “reasonable.” I really, really, reeeeeally wish the Jays would sign him though
Votto is gonna get paid, plain and simple
maybe the Jays will be the ones to do it, but he’s gonna rake it in
Bautista will likely be the 1B at that point
2 months ago, I would have agreed – it seems to make too much sense. Jays should be a contender by that point, or right there, position need, hometown player, etc etc. But I’ve come to doubt that this is the way AA intedns to build a club.
Who knows. It’s too far out to say with much certainly. But in my mind, the odds are pretty low
Do you think Bautista will really be opposed to DHing
If it means having Votto on the team? I don’t think that would deter them from going after him
I got it
Votto to 1st, Bautista to 3rd, Lawrie to DH since Hech will have been called up and pushed Escobar to 2nd. Thing is Arencibia will have been DH so we’ll need to move him to LF and convert Thames arms into a closer. Then we’ll reconvert Santos into a SS when Hech doesnt work out
by STZ513 on Feb 13, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
he's going to be ridiculously pricey
I’m not sure if the Jays would be in for him
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
can we try to come up with a list of free agents
who are known to have taken significant “hometown discounts?” I suspect that if we do, we will find that the vast vast majority of such players were players well past their pea, not impact stars in their prime.
The only player who might qualify in any sport that I can think of is when Ken Griffey Jr signed with Cincinatti, but I don’t remember if he signed for significantly less than any other team offered him (I don’t think he did, but could be wrong).
Some players do sign contract extensions with the clubs they came up with and may take small discounts to do so, but this is usually in exchange for guaranteed money in their team-control years.
In short, I don’t think that star players sign as free agents for hometown discounts and I would be curious to see if I’m right.
I might put up a fanpost tomorrow if I have some time to facilitate data collection.
serves me right for not reading the comment, wow
didn’t Doc do it too? though it could have been arm insurance, who knows
Philadelphia!!????
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 13, 2012 10:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Looking over my list of big FA contracts
There’s not really anyone else…and I can’t recall reading about any.
If we go down a tier…off the top of my McGwire took less to stay on St. Louis a couple times…I’ll take a better look through later tonight, since i have this info I can probably save you a lot of digging
that's true
people talk about hometown discounts, but I don’t really think I’ve seen a player actually take a significant cut to play at home.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
well maybe if he didn't come up and played the way he did
but after seeing what he can do, its hard to imagine he wouldn’t be a superstar.
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it's better
I mean, there’s still a few typos, and the sentence structure leaves a lot to be desired. I mean, I’m not trying to be overly critical. I mean, I barely proofread my comments at all, and they often have a pile of typos. But when I put a FanShot up (as I’m currently working on), I definitely proofread and edit before publishing. At the same time, this isn’t an English class so whatever, but it’s not really good when somebody has to read something 3 times to be able to make sense of it.
I agree, but this is BBB let's not be the spelling and grammar police.
Tom has been prone to some typos here and there. It’s not all that important, after all, it’s the thought that counts.
by T_Mizz on Feb 13, 2012 4:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He admitted he wasn't trying to be
and the guy clearly wanted to know where he went wrong
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 13, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
And I acknwledged this. At the same time, there is a point at which having too many errors prohibits the communication of those thoughts. There’s no objective standard, but when I have to read a paragraph 3 times to understand it due to typos and poor syntax, I’d say that’s well past that point
Was that on purpose?
Haha.
I play in a band too.
www.chasingmercury.ca
Sure
But just move on. To me, it makes us look bush-league to call others out on this. You’re a good guy and I enjoy your posts a lot. I just can’t stand these grammar police battles. If you don’t understand and want too, kindly just ask the poster to re-clarify their last post.
I'm hesitant to delve into this, considering it's basically a dead issue
You’re entitled to your opinion. I don’t understand how this is a grammar police battle. I have pointed out language/grammar problems in articles twice – this article and another that was apparently a crank FanPost that was subsequent deleted. I made a simple observation that it was difficult to read (did you read it before edits were made?) and was asked for more input, which I gave.
Maybe it’s bush-league to “call others out”, you’re entitled to the opinion, but it’s perfectly within rules the rules of this forum as I read them, as long as it’s not a personal attack. My opinion is, it’s equally bush league to have FanPosts on the front page that are replete with errors to the point it interferes with comprehension.
please read all the posts in a chain before commenting on them
he’s already had to defend this once, and he was just going deeper because he was asked what mistakes they were.
Poor mjww
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 15, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Off the Board
Just my opinion that these could be better handled via email, or something. I like this place a lot and I really enjoy the differences that each of bring here. MjwW makes some darn good posts and I enjoy reading them. Just feels like we could move past grammar/spelling issues. Again, just my opinion.
seriously read it again
nothing was said out of bounds, he made a small comment and then the poster asked him to know more
There was nothing at fault here except for these questioning mjww’s intentions
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 15, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
You Know
I think we just have a difference of opinion on this one and it is best to just drop it. I don’t think MjwW meant any disrespect, or is a bad guy. I’m moving on. Clearly you and he are free to post as you see fit. I meant no disrespect here.
I mean. I mean?
Now that’s awkward to read as well. You routinely have spelling and grammar issues. We all do. Can we seriously move past calling people out for this? You also spell funny. But that’s because you’re Canadian. I figure you for that, but mostly because half my blood runs with maple syrup as well.
You’re a smart dude, MjwW. You can break down stats pretty well. But when you, of all people, call others out on grammar, it smells of elitism and that seriously devalues your stock in my book.
*forgive not figure
See, a typo. Not the end of the planet. And no, it doesn’t bring down the blog. Because it’s a blog and Tom has typos from time to time and we all still wuv him.
Hey
No REPLY FAILS for me in this THREAD! wOOt!
Way to misrepresent what I said
I very clearly said above, a typo here and there isn’t a problem. It’s when you can’t understand what someone is saying that there’s a problem.
Yes
I also made a distinction between comments and actual articles. I admitted that I often don’t proofread my comments – as long as it’s reasonably clear what I mean, that’s fine. And if it’s not, and I realize that after, I’ll clarify. By when I write something that I publish, I spend time proofing it. And I’m not talking about a type here or there. I have a pretty simple rule of thumb – if I’m reading something and cannot understand what is being said due to errors, there’s a problem. Errors are not a problem. Errors can inhibit communication are.
You can think whatever of me you want. Honestly, it really matters little to me.
Ok
And like I’ve said. I enjoy your posts a lot. I’m just sick of seeing people being called out for grammar/spelling here. I’m not going to argue this any further. I like BBB a lot. I like reading your posts a lot. If you feel like we should be having grammar/error/spelling comments made in threads, by all means continue and good luck.
Guy who did well for 43 or something games
For NL MVP in 2010? Who also had a very solid 2011?
In a second. Sure we might loose surplus value but it is for a better player who likely would sign an extension (an expensive one mind you). Lawrie’s unbelievable 2011 was actually beat easily by Joey Votto’s 2010, and Votto almost had the higher OPS in 2011 (lost by .006 points)
Votto is a premier player, Lawrie is a top prospect. A 1 for 1 trade would be excellent.
we can use the money saved by keeping Lawrie
to sign an almost-as-good FA 1B while also retaining the “top prospect”
I suppose we could do that
But chances are Votto will stay with whatever team he finishes this season with.
Do you think Lawrie has a chance to outperform his 2011 slash line and even contend with Votto’s?
But chances are Votto will stay with whatever team he finishes this season with
And you know this because?
And I’m not looking to go round and round about this again, but THERE IS MORE TO BASEBALL THAN SLASH LINES! Positional value matters. Defence matters. Jeez
by MjwW on Feb 13, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Do I sense anger?
It’s just an opinion post on a mainly opinion site.
If you think the NL former MVP who almost had a better slash line in 2011 (over a MUCH larger sample size) isn’t better than Lawrie and his surplus value then power to you, but I do not.
7 fWAR in 2011 is impressive, especially with the positional adjustment.
it's not impressive especially with the positional adjustment
because that’s why the positional adjustment exists
You do understand that Votto would still roughly have 7 fWAR even if he played 3B, SS, CF, etc.?
That’s the point of positional adjustments
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
I think he meant win
the positional adjustment difference is 10 runs. And yeah, it probably would. There’s a reason he’s at 1st, not third, and it’s because he would be a subpar 3B…just like if Miggy Cabrera actually plays 3B rather than 1B this year, it’s almost certainly going to cost more than 10 runs
Votto is athletic though no?
I think he would take to 3rd much better than big ol’ Miggy
if he could play 3B he would have played it / would be playing it
the last time he played 3B was when he was 18, and he was quite bad at it.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Miggy could cost the Tigers 20-30 runs
Votto would certainly be better than Miggy, but still not good enough to man 3B vs. plaing him at first where he’s better.
There’s a reason he’s at first and not elsewhere. If he could be even a below average 3B (-5 runs), he’d be more valuable there likely.
Anger no, frustration yes
I never Lawrie will be better than Votto overall in 2012, that would be an incredibly unlikely projection ot the point of being stupid.
My point is, you wanted to compare Votto’s slash line to Lawrie as a measure of value, and that’s the full story. If (IF, IF, IF as an illustration of a point only) Lawrie’s slash line approaches Votto’s, Lawrie is almost certainly the more valuable player due to his speed on the bases, and defensive and positional value
I guess it depends on how much faith you have in Lawrie
But Lawrie is more than 6 years younger, under team control for much longer, and will cost the Jays far less over the next five or six years that he is under team control. Even he doesn’t become a 7 WAR player like Votto has, there’s a good chance he’ll be more valuable over the length of his entire tenure with the Jays given the age difference
Same Question, different terms
Lawrie for Votto, four years of control each, equal contracts. Is this easily Votto? Fangraphs’ fans are projecting Lawrie at 6.1 WAR and Votto at 7.5 for this coming season. Votto is likely at his peak, Lawrie likely will improve over the next couple years.
Lawrie will be 25 (26?) in 4 years
He should be entering his prime after the 4 years of control. Votto’s 4 years are his prime.
His 2011 wRC+ is 26
Votto by a country mile
The fans are way too optimistic on Lawrie – both really. A more reasonable projection would put Lawrie around 4 WAR and Votto around 6 WAR.
NO DEAL!
Votto is obviously the better player at this point but he will be a FA in a couple seasons.
If this is just for fun why not propose a better deal. Mike McCoy for Votto. Straight up!
Go Jays!
With or without McCoy’s frequent flyer points?
by MjwW on Feb 13, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Did anyone hear Greg Zaun on primetime sports today?
He said the jays are a five hundred team this year. I was saddened. Say it ain’t so!
Lots of dudes in the south wear Jays hats. I yell "Go Jays". They respond. "Canada has baseball?"
by jay_fan_inda_swamp on Feb 13, 2012 10:53 PM EST via mobile reply actions
He's closer to the "truth" I think
The Jays have a tough hurdle against the Rays, Yanks and Red Sox. Baltimore might not suck as bad this year. Plus the Angels, Tigers and Rangers are going to be deadly.
That’s almost 100 games right there. If the Jays can stay around .500 against these guys then there is a chance (not much of one) only if they can beat the stuffing out of the M’s, A’s and the rest of the AL Central.
In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.
by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Feb 14, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
If you heard the things he had to say about the team in his last PTS interview
Calling them a .500 club seems like a vote of confidence
like our farm system being barren?
I think Zaun lost all credibility as an analyst with that gem.
by ABsteve on Feb 14, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Not now
It really depends if we want to compete now, which I don’t think is the right time. May be next year. But then it will be won’t be Lawrie, since Votto’s value may not match with Lawrie anymore.
My Thoughts
The window to acquire Votta via trade this year has seriously shrunk with the Albert-less Cardinals, and the Prince-less Brewers. The Red can contend this year. Now if they don’t. If say they find themselves behind Houston, or the Cubs at the deadline, they may pull the trigger on a deal. But I doubt it.
And I agree 100% with MjwW here. AA is not going to sign Votto to a non-team friendly contract. It isn’t his style. Votto will easily get Fielder money.
It’s a great fantasy. Votta/Lawrie corners, but I just don’t see it happening anymore.
the Reds will not be behind Houston at the deadline
Houston has a chance to be historically bad this season. Like early-60s Mets bad.
Exactly
Just saying that if they are behind the Astros, then maybe the Jays can land Votto. Maybe. Personally I think they contend with St. Louis for the division title/wild card position. Though a big part of me really wants them to tank so that they do panic and trade Votto to the Jays.
To be fair
Projections are not destiny. The Jays were predicted by pretty much every sysem to be about a 65 win team (not too far from th Astros) in 2010, and they won 85. Now, I doubt the Reds will be below expectations and the Astros above their enough to put the Astros ahead of the Reds, but who know
Is that so
It’s quite amazing that it happened that way.
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/2/9/2786197/houston-astros-projections-2012
It’s about how bad the Astros are projected to be, but they show the last couple years. In 2010, CAIRO, MARCEL, OLIVER, PECOTA and CHONE all had the Jays as the worst (64, 67, 62, 67, 66 wins respectively)
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