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Question Time.

Here's the question of the day: If you could return one former Jay to his prime and put him on the Jays' roster, which one would you choose?

I'd pick Dave Stieb. It would be close between him and Roy Halladay but Stieb finished 19 of 38 starts in 1982, throwing 288.1 innings. Can you imagine? 288 innings? Having a guy starting every 4th day, giving your bullpen the day off? And, with Stieb's competitiveness getting the best of him, so often, watching him blowing up at his teammates would give us lots to talk about in the GameThreads.

Anyway, let us know which former Jay you would pick to join today's club.

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Clemens

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 10:30 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

would be nice

but wasn’t as good a hitter as Thomas was

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

true

I`m thinking we should look at it as an exJay whose prime was with the Jays. Then we`re not just picking the best HOFer.

by ayjackson on Feb 5, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

His Jays years weren’t his prime. it was a chemically augmented period. His prime would have been the pitche rhe was in the late 80s, and Stieb was better.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 2:18 AM EST up reply actions  

And your point is? We know that Clemans used drugs to better his results in Toronto. So calling it his prime isn’t reflective of true talent.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

okay

fine, take his numbers from the 80s, whatever.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 6, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

If we’re doing that, then Rickey Henderson in his prime is worth a lot more than Clemens.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

what

ever

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 6, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

See, it’s those artfully constructed rebuttals I come here for.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I said I'll take Clemens

you said Stieb’s prime was better than Clemens’ 80s numbers. That is false. I also never compared Henderson with Clemens, other than when I said that I’d also take him (Henderson) and Thomas if given the choice.

Whatever.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 6, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, you responded to my comment to benk, which was regarding Clemens not being the only chemically augmented player, and my comment that a player who you know is using chemicals to bolster his abilities can’t really be considered in his prime. To which you pointed out Clemens numbers in the 80s, which are very good, but significantly lower than other former Jays, such as Henderson.

Plus, people really say ‘whatever’ as a rebuttal these days? I thought that went out at the same time as WB sitcoms. Well, when in Rome…

Whatever.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Significantly?

What numbers are you looking at? From 86 to 92, Clemens put up 59.9 fWAR. In his best 7 year stretch, Henderson put up 52.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 6, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

pardon

Henderson’s best stretch is actually 53.7. Point stands though.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 6, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Ballball Reference

For both players, I took a ten year period starting with their first big year, which has Henderson from 1980-1989 and Clemens from 1986-1995. It’s their closest, longest, most similar ranges as top players.

Henderson puts up a total WAR of 72.1 (averaging 7.2 WAR per year) and Clemens put up 63.1 or an average of 6.3 per year. By 1996, we know Clemens started using steroids, so his numbers past that point I’m not interested in (although if you want to throw in his Jays years, he’s still 6 points behind Henderson up to that point)

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

for the same period FanGraphs says 72.3 for Henderson and 72.2 for Clemens

which tells us, gasp, that the two were comparable players!

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 6, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not really the question here, but I know personally why I don’t accredit Clemens the respect as a player that his numbers should earn, and it’s solely because we have solid proof that he cheated and the time period we specifically have the most proof about coincides with his sudden miraculous turnaround from a guy seemingly flaming out early after an incredible run to the guy who defied age and injury to post one of the greatest back to back seasons of all time.

1996 is the line that separates Roger the very good but short lived pitcher and Roger the surefire HoF candidate and one of the best pitchers in the history of the game. And, yes, no doubt many many other people who we offer those kinds of laurels to have cheated just as bad as Clemens, but we don’t have clear proof about most of them and we do about him. So what is his career – the astonishing possibly best ever, or the good that needed drugs to make great?

That’s why I have a personal issue with lauding Clemens. Probably more keenly felt by my generation because we watched all of the stages of Clemens from start to finish.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

if Clemens had retired after his last season with the Sox

he would have had 86.3 fWAR in 13 seasons. that’s surefire HoFer

by benk on Feb 6, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

BR has him with 74.8, which puts him into Bert Blyleven territory. He had 3 Cy Youngs and an MVP, which would have helped, but especially at the time, I can see the less than 200 wins, poor post season performances and attitude keeping him waiting for years.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Blyleven should have been in a lot earlier. If his career had ended 10 years later, and been eligible 10 years later, there’s no way he waits as long as he did.

Also, even though Clemens aggregate total would have been close to Blyleven, Clemens had a higher peak (Cy Young seasons, etc) that was one of the things Blyleven was seen as lacking and kept him waiting. If Clemens had retired after 1996, I think he’d have been in the HoF either in 2001 or 2002 – especially since his numbers would look even better due to the offensive explosion at the time

by MjwW on Feb 6, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

On further reflection

I think he would have only been eligible for induction in 2002, so make that 2022 or 2003 rather than 2001 or 2002. In any event, his first eligibility year or second

by MjwW on Feb 6, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know. Writers hated Clemens. Especially Boston writers, and that would have been them coming into their peak of influence. I think he would have gotten the Luis Tiant right up until he did a mea culpa moment.

by dexfarkin on Feb 7, 2012 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Why

hasn’t anyone outright called him an asshole yet? Do we need to go over the bylaws here again?

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Feb 7, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Is there a hierarchy between Ballball Reference versus Fangraphs, or do we just rock paper scissor it?

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

For position players, I prefer Fangraphs numbers for offense because they use wOBA whereas last I knew, B-R is OPS based. For defense, FG uses UZR and B-R T(otal)ZR, which for me are 6 of one half dozen of the other.

The more prominent difference is pitching…Fangrpahs uses FIP, B-R runs allowed with an adjustment for defense. For large samples (careers) they’ll largely converge, but otherw ise I usually just split the difference – that’s what Tango does, and if it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me.

by MjwW on Feb 6, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I was mostly kidding, but that’s good to know. I don’t really follow the development side of SABRmetrics, so I tend to wait and see what gets widely adopted online before trying to understand it.

by dexfarkin on Feb 6, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Based on today`s roster

It has to be Stieb or Delgado. Both would add a bunch of wins over the player replaced.

Doh. And I see Clemens as I write this.

by ayjackson on Feb 5, 2012 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

Delgado for sure.

Can we start the Gose watch yet?

by honours6 on Feb 6, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

What If ...

George Bell banging out 40 HR/120 RBI a year for the next 5 years in LF would be great. He must be one of the greatest Rule 5 picks in MLB history.

by kzgqgf on Feb 5, 2012 10:37 AM EST reply actions  

How no one has said Robbie yet idn. One of the best 2nd basemen ever? Sign me up.

Kadri Fanboy since 2006

by WizardofNaz on Feb 5, 2012 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

Depends what you mean

If we’re talking prime, regardless of whether he was a Jay during that time period?

Roger Clemens.

Prime during time with Jays?

Roberto Alomar.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Feb 5, 2012 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

Clemens' two seasons with the Jays

were two of the best seasons in baseball history… 19.9 fWAR

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but he only played 2 seasons with the Jays. If we had Clemens throughout the prime time of his career (Boston and Toronto years)…

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Feb 5, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I understand your point

but Clemens’ two Jays seasons were the two best back-to-back seasons he ever had, and his best and fifth-best seasons overall

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

He's

Someone no one likes…..I’m putting it this way instead of saying what everyone really wants to say about him

by Keith72 on Feb 5, 2012 2:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

To be honest,

given their personalities, I think the difference between Clemens and plenty of other Jays would be a wash

Normally I don’t fall too much into team chemistry but Clemens really is both about as bad as you can get and should be in prison

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Feb 5, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't see it

there’s no real evidence that Clemens’ baggage will actually cost a team wins.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair

There isn’t really any way to quantify that

by Aidin on Feb 5, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So we shouldn't take Clemens because he has a ton of baggage

but we also have no idea how to quantify how many games that baggage will cost a team.

Don’t get it.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

no way of quantifying it

doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. (to play devil’s advocate)

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

for sure

but without actual evidence that Clemens will cost at least 1 or 2 wins, I’m taking him over anyone else.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yikes...

Can we start the Gose watch yet?

by honours6 on Feb 6, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Alomar`s prime over KJ

is it as much as Delgado over Lind or Stieb over McGowan/Cecil?

by ayjackson on Feb 5, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The only way it's not Roger

is if we’re putting emphasis on longevity (ie we only get him for 2 years whereas we’d get other choices for longer). At their best in a Jays uniform, it’s a no brainer.

by Mathlete on Feb 5, 2012 10:53 AM EST reply actions  

John Olerud!!!

In 93 season he went 363/.473/.599. I would love to slot that next to Bautista

by Matthew Mueller on Feb 5, 2012 11:26 AM EST reply actions  

My pick as well

Olerud and Bautista would be unreal together.

My Mo Space

by durga2112 on Feb 5, 2012 2:27 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

How about...

Bell, Barfield, and Moseby? They come as a package!

by Cybertooth Tiger on Feb 5, 2012 11:31 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

have to say Clemens, he was just too good with the Jays

but Alomar would slot in very nicely given the team’s needs. Jesse Barfield would also be a great addition, assuming TZ is right about his defense (moving Bautista to first base, eliminating that need)

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 11:44 AM EST reply actions  

I think would be very happy

If the 2012 Jays had Stieb or Halladay or Clemens (less so than either of the two.)

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Feb 5, 2012 12:00 PM EST reply actions  

Delgado

Dat.bat

+1 is only good if you actually rec the post

by Bowling_Guy25 on Feb 5, 2012 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

I'm with Tom

I’d love to see Stieb back. Runners up for me would be Alomar and Fernandez.

by Blue Feathers on Feb 5, 2012 1:10 PM EST reply actions  

I disagree with Fernandez

just because we already have an excellent shortstop. he’d be a nice fit at second thoguh

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

But then there's no room for Alomar!

Though I guess you could then move Lawrie to his natural natural position of catcher, though he would be blocked by Delgado at his natural position.

by MjwW on Feb 5, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

who cares

we brought back Kevin Cash

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

ERNIE WHITT!!1

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Feb 5, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m going to say Halladay. A healthy Halladay added to our current rotation and we’re looking at 10-15 more wins this year and playoff contention. I’m giving him the nod over Stieb because of Roy’s playoff no-hitter. Hypothetically if we are in the playoffs, id rather have Halladay pitching game one of a playoff series then Stieb. I won’t even consider Clemens because that guy disgusts me and is a terrible human being despite his freak talents.

by Sean Coleman on Feb 5, 2012 1:27 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I'll give you that

Clemens did have some freaky talents. To get better, to gain velocity and arm strenth in your mid-30’s could only be attributed to some sort of super-human strength. Wait what?

by craig in calgary on Feb 5, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

He would be my choice.

2 of those near no-hitters broken up with 2 outs in the 9th (consecutive) that I remember.

by Alan F. on Feb 6, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

He's had 3 broken up with 2 out

the back to back games in Cleveland and in Toronto against B-more.

1989 almost Perfect Game broken up by Roberto Kelly

Another potential PG was broken up by an infield hit by BJ Surhoff in the 4th. No Drama.

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Feb 6, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Those were the 2 that I remembered off the top of my head.

with that bad hop single in Cleveland being so heart breaking.

by Alan F. on Feb 6, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I could do with a 1996 Pat Hentgen

20 wins on a 74 win team, we could pencil him in for 26-28 W’s with this offense. I’d take 1993-1997

by Psychotoad on Feb 5, 2012 1:56 PM EST reply actions  

good pitcher

but his peak was way shorter than Halladay’s and Stieb’s, even if you don’t want Clemens

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Delgado

You then platoon Lind/EE at DH or 1B, and that becomes an offense that is every bit as powerful as the Yankees.

by dexfarkin on Feb 5, 2012 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

Edwin Jackson!

With Miguel Olivo a close second.

by brigstew on Feb 5, 2012 2:17 PM EST reply actions  

Mike Napoli!

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Feb 5, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Rickey Henderson

I would take 10 WAR from a centerfielder any day. Not to mention the exciting play.

by yescobar on Feb 6, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Rickey Henderson was primarily a LF

Hic sunt fortuna dracones
There is only 1 "n" in Hutchison

by JaysfanDL on Feb 6, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

fun fact:

Bautista now holds the Jays career record for wOBA, wRC+, BB%, SLG, and ISO. Also tied for 2nd in OBP.

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

Think he can put up 21.1 fWAR for the remainder of his career?

would put him tops among Jays hitters

His 2011 wRC+ is 26

by Pikachu on Feb 5, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

call his true talent in 2012 5 fWAR (conservative, but not crazily so)

.5 fWAR decline/year, 5 in 2012, 4.5 in 2013, 4 in 2014, 3.5 in 2015, 3 in 2016 = 19… so he’s got a shot, especially if he gets resigned afterwards. it’ll be tough to put up 21.1 just over the next five years, but it’s possible

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

add that

to the walk off home run in the world series he’ll hit, and he’s a lock for 1st on the 2020 greatest Jay list.

by Lutherie on Feb 6, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow that's really tough...

…kind of like having an all-you-can-eat pass at a ribfest. I have no idea where to start.

Can I pick an entire roster? (That will be a separate Fanpost)

I can’t bring myself to say Clemens – I just can’t stand the guy – but he did put up the best rWAR season every by a Jay. However, I think the place for the biggest improvement would be at 1B, so I’m saying John Olerud, 1993, OPS+ of 193, rWAR of 8.2.

Hugo thinks I'm a lazy academic

by bluejaysstatsgeek on Feb 5, 2012 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

Robbie

For his escapades both on and off the field.

by FanInJapan on Feb 5, 2012 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

Clemens' 2 years with the Jays

If we are talking about bring Clemens back today, he would be subject to testing. He probably could never repeat those 2 years with the Jays. I say Dave Steib. In his day he was the best. Too bad Cy Young voters paid so much attention to wins in his day.

by leonard euler on Feb 5, 2012 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

My picks have already been said..

But based on the team we currently have, I’d say..

Clemens & Delgado.

I am the one who knocks.

by outoforder87 on Feb 5, 2012 4:27 PM EST reply actions  

Ernie Witt?
Add Alomar for sure, Clemens, Hentgen and Stieb, Bell are all great picks though

Why I'm a optimistic Bills fan:
The road that is built in hope is more pleasant to the traveler than the road built in despair, even though they both lead to the same destination.
- Marion Zimmer Bradley

by mavadjdj on Feb 5, 2012 4:44 PM EST reply actions  

I knew I blew it, lol. Was going to say Borders cause I knew I could spell it right.

Why I'm a optimistic Bills fan:
The road that is built in hope is more pleasant to the traveler than the road built in despair, even though they both lead to the same destination.
- Marion Zimmer Bradley

by mavadjdj on Feb 6, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Alomar

Biggest catalyst for the Jays offense during the Glory years….Stieb is a close second

by rmit on Feb 5, 2012 6:28 PM EST reply actions  

Not the best ever but

1986 Mark Eichhorn for the bullpen anyone?

by Gruber17 on Feb 5, 2012 8:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Doc Halladay

Its pretty sad when many of us would choose Halladay as his prime is right now ( still )! AA is a salary dump specialist, regardless of what his drones and shills might say and he unloaded a great player in his prime for $$$$.

by Bob Bob Law on Feb 5, 2012 10:09 PM EST reply actions  

Halladay said he was not resigning and respectfully asked for a trade to a contender. Are you suggesting the Jays should have held on to him, had an unhappy Roy Halladay for 2010 and then lost him for nothing? We got one of the top ranked minor league catchers and a pitcher who could potentially be decent in return for him which is better then nothing. Its not AA’s fault that JP couldn’t build a team that could contend and Roy didn’t want to stay. Not really sure how you can call it a salary dump when the player doesn’t want to play for us anymore.

by Sean Coleman on Feb 5, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

we also got a player

who we eventually flipped for a toolshed outfielder who looks like he has a decent chance of turning into a good player

by benk on Feb 5, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that you have to love AA...

but he gets an unfair rap from a lot of haters and bitter fans. Fans complain that we have been rebuilding for 19 years. In reality, AA has only been in charge for a couple of years and we’re really just entering year 3 of a 5 year plan. Its been a frustrating 19 years, but you can’t hand the poor management of Gord Ash and JP Ricardi on AA. In 3 short years, our minor league system is stronger then it has been in decades and the foundation is in place via scouting and coaching depth in the minors that we can build a contender. He also doesn’t set the “payroll perimeters” but merely must stay within them as set by his boss so its not as if our payroll is at 80 million simply because AA has decided so. Furthermore, if you look at the state of the team at the end of JP’s reign when our minor leagues were devoid of talent and the team payroll bloated at 100 million with poor results, and compare it to the team now, it certainly has improved. Gord Ash failed and JP failed and it certainly hurt attendance and the fans faith in the ball club however AA has made radical changes to the ball club in the short time he’s been in control and its just not fair to say “we’ve been rebuilding for 19 years” or hold our performances from ‘96-’08 against AA and his attempt to build the team and organization into a long term contender.

by Sean Coleman on Feb 5, 2012 11:30 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

We could be the...

Cubs. They haven’t won in like 3.25 of my lifetimes. Teddy Roosevelt was president of the US and Canada’s PM was Sir Wilfrid Lauier. Heck, we hadn’t even started WWI yet and Boardwalk Empire would be 12 years away from happening. That means Mount Rushmore is younger than the Cubs last World Series championship…

19 years ago I still a teenager and can remember Joe hitting the big home run!

by FanInJapan on Feb 6, 2012 5:46 AM EST reply actions  

McGriff

Just to be different, I want my former favourite Jay back!

But honestly my first thought here was Alomar but after giving it some thought I’d go with Halladay…Jays really need an upgrade in the rotation and a true #1

by bunner on Feb 6, 2012 10:09 AM EST reply actions  

Clemens

For this upcoming season I think the offense is going to be good. That leads me to consider a pitcher. I had a hard time deciding between Doc and Clemens but I ultimately went with Clemens.

I always liked Clemens. I guess I’m the rare baseball fan that doesn’t engage in self righteous moral hand wringing. I could care less if he had an affair with an underage country singer or if he mainlines litres of anabolic steroids between innings so long as he goes out every fifth day and intimidates, demoralizes and embarrasses the opposing lineup like he did in his prime.

All my favourite things start with the letter "B". Bong Hits, Beers, BBQ, Blue Jays and Boobs!

by Norcase on Feb 6, 2012 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

Brad Fullmer

It’s important the clubhouse understands the direction of the organization

by Sampo on Feb 8, 2012 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

obviously robby alomar

wouldn’t want anybody more then him

by TheMainEvent on Feb 8, 2012 3:27 PM EST reply actions  

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