Hall of Fame Polls: Andy Pettitte and Manny Ramirez

I’m going to skip Aramis Ramirez. He had a very good 18-year MLB career, playing for the Cubs (9 years), Pirates (7 years), and Brewers (4 years).

He hit .283/.341/.492 with 386 home runs in 2194 games, playing third base. Baseball Reference has him at a 32.4 WAR.

I think it is fair to say that he wasn’t good with the glove. If he played in the AL, he’d have played more DH than anything else. But he had decent power, got on base about 35% of the time during his prime. He made 4 All-Star teams and got MVP votes 5 times. His highest finish was 9th in 2012.

2012 was his best season, hitting .300/.360/.540 with 27 home runs and 50 doubles, worth a 5.6 bWAR. But he only had two seasons where his WAR was over 5. Despite the long career, I’m sure few of us would see him as a Fall of Famer.

I was never a big fan of Andy Pettitte. For one, he was a Yankee. And I always thought he was overrated. Plus, I could never remember how many Ts there were in his name.

But he did have a pretty nice career. 18 seasons. 256-153 record with a 3.85 ERA. 531 games, 521 starts. He is 40th all-time in games started. He had a 60.7 bWAR, good for 60th all-time among pitchers.

He was 3rd in Rookie of the Year voting in 1995. The next year he went 21-8 with a 3.87 ERA coming in second in Cy Young voting (Pat Hentgen won it that year, in a very close vote). He would win 21 games again in 2003.

Pettitte pitched 9 seasons with the Yankees and then signed with the Astros as a free agent. After three years there, he went back to the Yankees. He played there for 5 years, and then ‘retired’. After sitting out the 2011 season, he went back to the Yankees for 2 more seasons. In 2013 he went 11-11 with a 3.74 ERA in 30 starts at age 41. After that, he retired for good.

Andy won 5 World Series rings, 4 with the Yankees and 1 with the Astros. He holds MLB playoff records for wins (19), starts (44), and innings (276.2).

And, of course, there was some controversy. Pettitte admitted to using human growth hormones to “help recover from elbow surgery”. He said Roger Clemen’s trainer got it for him. He also noted that Clemons used PEDs.

I’m curious if that affects his vote total from the Writers. He played into his 40s, suggesting he may have had more help than just recovering from elbow surgery. I wonder if he’ ‘s being held to the same standard as Barry Bond and Clemens or if his reputation as a ‘good guy’ will win out.

It is Andy’s third time on the ballot. Last year he was on 11.3% of the ballots, so he needs his numbers to start climbing if he’s going to make it. In his last years on the ballot there will be a movement to get him to that 75%. But then I’m not sure he’ll make it.

His career numbers are here.

Manny Ramirez was a pretty good hitter....a bit of an understatement. 19 seasons, a .312/.411/.585 line with 555 home runs, 1831 RBI. bWAR of 69.2.

It is his third time on the ballot. He was on 28.2% of the ballots last year, up from 22.0% the year before

He made 12 All-Star teams, picked up MVP votes 11 times (finished 3rd twice, and in the top 10 9 times), 9 Silver Slugger awards, won the Hank Aaron award twice, and was World Series MVP in 2004. And he finished second in Rookie of the Year voting in 1994, after playing in just 91 games.

And, I know it shouldn’t impress me, but he drove in 165, back in 1999, with Cleveland.

He played 8 seasons with Cleveland, 8 with the Red Sox, 3 with the Dodgers, and 1 each with the Rays and White Sox.

Manny played left field (1037 games), right (904), and DH (332). He was pretty terrible defensively.

He also played 111 playoff games, hitting .285/.394/.554 with 29 home runs. He has two World Series rings.

On the negative side, he was suspended for PEDs twice. Players lose votes for rumors of PED use, but with Manny, they have proof. For me, it is often a question of if I think the player would have been a Hall of Fame type without the help. Manny is a tough call, but his numbers are pretty terrific. I’m not sure how much to discount them because of the PEDs.

It will be interesting to see how Andy Pettitte’s vote count compares to Manny’s. Both used. Manny had the better WAR (69.4 compared to 60.3). Both were playoff heroes (Manny holds the record for most playoff home runs with 29). Last year Manny had almost 3 times the vote of Andy’s.

Ramirez stats are here.